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illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

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illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby daivid » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:22 pm

This arises out of this thread http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60474.

The basic thinking behind these sentences is that the reason why Anabasis 1:4,7 is so hard is that it combines a lot of tricky things which treated individually would not be insurmountable but all together they overwhelm the learner. Hence separating some of the points of syntax grammar and using them in shorter more manageable sentences will allow the learner to then go on to process Xenophon's monster sentence. I include two because that is how many I have managed today. To work this idea would need say 6 to 10.

1)ὁ ἄνθρωπος δε βλέπων λύκον ἑώρα κίνδυνον, ὁ λύκος μὲν βλέπων τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἑώρα δεῖπνον.

2) Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς φιλοτιμηθέντα ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέα


Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 wrote:
καὶ Ξενίας ὁ Ἀρκὰς στρατηγὸς καὶ Πασίων ὁ Μεγαρεὺς ἐμβάντες εἰς πλοῖον καὶ τὰ πλείστου ἄξια ἐνθέμενοι ἀπέπλευσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν τοὺς παρὰ Κλέαρχον ἀπελθόντας ὡς ἀπιόντας εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα πάλιν καὶ οὐ πρὸς βασιλέα εἴα Κῦρος τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby Markos » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:15 pm

This is a good idea, Daivid. Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be posting my contributions to this project here.

Since you started there, let's continue with the ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες construction, which, as you say, is just one part of what makes our sentence from Xenophon so difficult to process. It's difficult because the verb is rare and a bit tricky, and you have a somewhat unfamiliar construction with δοκέω. We'll provide helps for both issues.

First, a minor correction to your offered help. The participle should be in the nominative, so we would have:

Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.

The construction in your help is actually a bit different from the construction in Xenophon, but that is okay. You've provided an excellent help for the vocabulary part.

Now, I am going to produce a bunch of versions of your help sentence, beginning with paraphrases that use different vocab and constructions with the same basic meaning. Then I will build to versions that are closer and closer to the original. First, though, here is the construction in question from Xenophon with the extraneous stuff omitted and the word order altered to make more clear the construction.

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων ἀπέπλευσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι Κῦρος εἴα τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν.

Now, the "leveled" helps:

Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει διότι ὀργίζεται διότι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει διότι φιλοτιμεῖται ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει διότι ἐφιλοτιμήθη ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει διότι πολλοὶ ἄνθρωποι ἐνόμισαν ὅτι Ἀχιλλεύς ἐφιλοτιμήθη ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει διότι Ἀχιλλεύς δοκεῖ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἀνθρώποις φιλοτιμούμενος ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει ὡς Ἀχιλλεύς δοκεῖ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἀνθρώποις φιλοτιμούμενος ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς ἐδόκει τοῖς πλείστοις ἀνθρώποις φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς ἐδόκει τοῖς πλείστοις φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.

Now here are my own helps. The technique of using English proper names is advocated by Krashen. In this case, I'm skipping a bunch of levels.

John McCain ἐφιλοτιμήθη ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.
John McCain ἐδόκει φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.
John McCain ἔκλαυσεν ὡς ἐδόκει τοῖς πλείστοις φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.
John McCain καὶ Mitt Romney ἔκλαυσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.

Here again is the construction from Xenophon. Compare it to the last version of my help.

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων ἀπέπλευσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι Κῦρος εἴα τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν.

I'll stop here. As the title of your thread suggests, this is just a start. We have only covered one small part of the Xenophon sentence, and we have only offered one help each. I think we should continue with this sentence, and that at some point we need to test the method. My idea is that the helps, (all in Greek, no English translations or meta-language) if there are enough of them, would allow an intermediate learner to process a difficult sentence that they would not otherwise be able to process. At some point I will find a difficult sentence that you cannot process and I will provide helps and see if that allows you to figure it out. You can do the same for me.

Anyone else is free to jump in. Also, David and I could use help in correcting our Greek, since in this case it is important that the helps themselves not be incorrect. (as opposed to Greek as communication where mistakes are really no big deal.)
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby daivid » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:38 am

Markos wrote:First, a minor correction to your offered help. The participle should be in the nominative, so we would have:

Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.


Ooops yes of course - Thanks.
Markos wrote:
The construction in your help is actually a bit different from the construction in Xenophon, but that is okay. You've provided an excellent help for the vocabulary part.

Now, I am going to produce a bunch of versions of your help sentence, beginning with paraphrases that use different vocab and constructions with the same basic meaning. Then I will build to versions that are closer and closer to the original. First, though, here is the construction in question from Xenophon with the extraneous stuff omitted and the word order altered to make more clear the construction.

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων ἀπέπλευσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι Κῦρος εἴα τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν.

Now, the "leveled" helps:

Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει διότι ὀργίζεται διότι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει διότι φιλοτιμεῖται ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει διότι ἐφιλοτιμήθη ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει διότι πολλοὶ ἄνθρωποι ἐνόμισαν ὅτι Ἀχιλλεύς ἐφιλοτιμήθη ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει διότι Ἀχιλλεύς δοκεῖ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἀνθρώποις φιλοτιμούμενος ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει ὡς Ἀχιλλεύς δοκεῖ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἀνθρώποις φιλοτιμούμενος ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς ἐδόκει τοῖς πλείστοις ἀνθρώποις φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.
Ἀχιλλεύς ἔμενε ἐν σκήνει ὡς ἐδόκει τοῖς πλείστοις φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.

Now here are my own helps. The technique of using English proper names is advocated by Krashen. In this case, I'm skipping a bunch of levels.

John McCain ἐφιλοτιμήθη ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.
John McCain ἐδόκει φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.
John McCain ἔκλαυσεν ὡς ἐδόκει τοῖς πλείστοις φιλοτιμηθεὶς ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.
John McCain καὶ Mitt Romney ἔκλαυσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.

Here again is the construction from Xenophon. Compare it to the last version of my help.

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων ἀπέπλευσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι Κῦρος εἴα τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν.

I think the idea of several sentences is excellent. However, my feeling at the moment is that 8 is too many
and the four of the second example works better. If there are too many of very similar sentences the reader will begin to pay less attention. My initial feeling is that some of the Achilies examples are less useful but I want to sleep on it before commenting on that as when I read them thru tomorrow they might seem different.

Markos wrote:

I'll stop here. As the title of your thread suggests, this is just a start. We have only covered one small part of the Xenophon sentence, and we have only offered one help each. I think we should continue with this sentence, and that at some point we need to test the method. My idea is that the helps, (all in Greek, no English translations or meta-language) if there are enough of them, would allow an intermediate learner to process a difficult sentence that they would not otherwise be able to process. At some point I will find a difficult sentence that you cannot process and I will provide helps and see if that allows you to figure it out. You can do the same for me.

I did give two examples though possibly the first didn't seem so connected.
ὁ ἄνθρωπος δε βλέπων λύκον ἑώρα κίνδυνον, ὁ λύκος μὲν βλέπων τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἑώρα δεῖπνον.

It was to give an example of α contraction imperfect. There is nothing dificult in principle about εἴα. It is just you meet that form so rarely that it doesn't really stick in the brain. I have on my bedroom wall a table of all the imperfect contract forms and several times when I unable to sleep I have memorized them but then because I see them so rarely afterwards I forget them again.
So a sentence that did nothing but remind the reader would be worth it


Markos wrote:Anyone else is free to jump in. Also, David and I could use help in correcting our Greek, since in this case it is important that the helps themselves not be incorrect. (as opposed to Greek as communication where mistakes are really no big deal.)


As we are going to ask the learner to read a lot of sentences before reading the target one we had better make sure they are good practice in themselves. :)
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby Markos » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:51 pm

I want now want to tackle τὰ πλείστου ἄξια. The phrase is somewhat of an idiom, not too hard in itself. I stumbled over it only, as we have been saying, because it was combined with some other tricky stuff. Here is part of our sentence, with the extraneous stuff omitted and the word order changed to illustrate the basic construction.

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων, ἐνθέμενοι τὰ ἄξια πλείστου εἰς πλοῖον, ἀπέπλευσαν.

Here's some helps:

Donald Trump καὶ Bill Gates πλούσιός εἰσι. πολλὰ χρήματα ἔχουσι. πολλὰς οἰκίας ἔχουσι. ἔχουσι οὖν τὰ πλείστου ἄξια.

οἱ πλούσιοι ἔχουσι τὰ πλείστου ἄξια.
οἱ πλούσιοι ἔχουσι τὰ πολλοῦ ἄξια.
οἱ πλούσιοι ἔχουσι τὰ πολλῆς τιμῆς ἄξια.
οἱ πλούσιοι ἔχουσι τὰ πολλῶν χρημάτων ἄξια.

οἱ πλούσιοι τίθασι τὰ πλείστου ἄξια ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ καὶ φυλάττουσι ταῦτα.
πλεῖστοι πλούσιοι ἄνθρωποι ἔχουσι πολλὰ.
πλεῖστοι πλούσιοι ἄνθρωποι ἔχουσι πολλὰ ἄξια πλείστου.
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby daivid » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:22 pm

Markos wrote:I want now want to tackle τὰ πλείστου ἄξια. The phrase is somewhat of an idiom, not too hard in itself. I stumbled over it only, as we have been saying, because it was combined with some other tricky stuff. Here is part of our sentence, with the extraneous stuff omitted and the word order changed to illustrate the basic construction.

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων, ἐνθέμενοι τὰ ἄξια πλείστου εἰς πλοῖον, ἀπέπλευσαν.

It might be worthwhile to include an example that shows the most direct link to value and price such as this from Lysias. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0153%3Aspeech%3D32%3Asection%3D21%20

εἰς δὲ τὸ μνῆμα τοῦ πατρὸς οὐκ ἀναλώσας πέντε καὶ εἴκοσι μνᾶς ἐκ πεντακισχιλίων δραχμῶν

(It is from "Against Diogeiton" in which the grandchildren of Diogeiton accuse him of having embezzled their inheritance)
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby mwh » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:12 pm

OK, let me have a go at breaking down the structure. The sentence could end with apepleusan, right? Lit. "X. & P., having got onto a boat and having put in (it) the things worth most (lit. the things worthy of most, i.e. the most valuable things, their most valuable possessions), sailed off."
(Gen. very common with axios, e.g. ta oudenos axia worthless stuff; axia pollou worth a lot, valuable; axia pleistou worth most, most valuable.)

Now things get a little more tricky. What doesn't emerge from Markos' fine "levels" (all good except in this respect) is that "ws men tois pleistois edokoun" is parenthetical, you can remove it without affecting the construction. Lit. "as they (X.&P.) seemed to most people" i.e. "(as most people thought)" or "(so most people reckoned)". The "men" (without an answering "de") suggests that not quite everyone thought so. The following participle, filotimhqentes ("angered," "pissed off," let's say), does not depend on edokoun. (If it did, it wouldn't be a participle but an infinitive.) Rather the "ws - edokoun" clause is subordinate to filotimhqentes, which is just a participle continuing the sentence: "... they sailed off, angered (as most thought) ..."

Then there's the oti clause, explaining the cause of their disaffection: " ... they sailed off, pissed off that/because/by the fact that ..." The oti-clause will have an indicative verb, which we don't in fact hit until we reach "eia." Xenophon could have ended the sentence at apepleusan, and continued with a new sentence, e.g. efilotimhqhsan gar ... ("For they were pissed off ..."), but instead he strung the first sentence out longer by using the participle (filotimhqentes). It makes no difference to the oti-clause that follows.

The oti clause. If we took the oti away we'd have a simple sentence (simple in its basic syntax, that is):
(1) an accusative, tous stratiwtas ... tous ... apelqontas ws apiontas ... ou pros ton basilea (I'll unpack that in a moment, but for now it's enough to register that whole lot as a single extended accusative)
(2) eia, the main verb (of the oti-clause, if we keep that oti)
(3) Kuros, the subject (ditto)
(4) another accusative, ton Klearxon
(5) an infinitive, exein.
"(because) Cyrus allowed Klearchos to have/keep the soldiers .... That's to say: ton Klearxon is the direct object of eia, while the opening tous stratiwtas etc is the direct object of the closing exein! That may seem like pretty convoluted word order, but Xenophon is focussing on the soldiers (the soldiers that left X&P for Klearchos, that Cyrus let Klearchos keep), whose behavior led to X&P's sailing off.
(Keeping the word order, we could put into Cyrus' mouth "The soldiers that went over to you, I allow you to keep," "tous stratiwtas tous para se apelqontas ew s'exein."

So back to tous stratiwtas etc.:
"tous stratiwtas autwn "their soldiers"
tous para Klearxon apelqontas, "the ones that had gone off to K," "who had gone off to K." Participle with definite article. We need to distinguish this both from (i) simple participle, without article, and also from (ii) a relative clause. To illustrate:
(i) tous stratiwtas para Kl. apelqontas (no article with the participle) would mean "the soldiers, having gone off to Kl." That's not what Xenophon wants to say.
(ii) tous stratiwtas oi para Kl. aphlqon (oi relative pronoun, aphlqon aor indic) would mean "the soldiers, who had gone off to Kl." (that's to say, all of them had, note the comma in the English). That's not what Xenophon wants to say either.
tous stratiwtas TOUS para Kl. apelqontas means "the soldiers who had gone off to Klearchos" -- implying that not all of them had: he's talking only about those that HAD gone off to Klearchos instead of staying with Xenias and Pasion.

Tacked on to that is a participial phrase, ws apiontas eis thn Ellafa palin kai ou pros ton basilea. apiontas future pple, preceded by ws. This conveys the idea of their apparent intention in defecting to Klearchos. Lit. "as being about to go back to Greece and not against the King", better translated "with the intention [or at least the apparent intention, "ws" with the participle makes it less of a statement of fact] of going back to Greece instead of against the King." apiontas agrees with apelqontas agrees with tous stratiwtas (object of exein).

That's it, home dry. There's other points wthat could be gone into (the precise nuance of filotimhqentes, for instance, a very Greek and scarcely translatable notion), but that's the syntactical structure. Doesn't Greek makes great use of participles! (So much more flexible than Latin. But that's a different story.)

-- Incidentally, in your first sentence, Daivid, lol-illustrating a contract -aw verb in the imperfect, you've inverted "men" and "de." I'd make this "o men anqrwpos ... , o de lukos ...".
And I don't see the relevance of your final Lysias quote, which has no genitive of price or value, just the normal genitive after ek.

Hope you don't mind my shoving my oar in. I'm new here, and having fun.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby daivid » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:36 am

mwh wrote:-- Incidentally, in your first sentence, Daivid, lol-illustrating a contract -aw verb in the imperfect, you've inverted "men" and "de." I'd make this "o men anqrwpos ... , o de lukos ...".
And I don't see the relevance of your final Lysias quote, which has no genitive of price or value, just the normal genitive after ek..


μνᾶς is also genitive.
The speaker is saying that on the father's tomb the alleged embezzler did not (even) spend 25 minae out of the 5000 drachma (ie 50 minae) claimed.

If you say I have god μεν and δε the wrong way round I wouldn't doubt it. I am very shaky about which comes first.

mwh wrote:Hope you don't mind my shoving my oar in. I'm new here, and having fun.


No please do. Indeed thanks for the help.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby mwh » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:40 am

"μνᾶς is also genitive.
The speaker is saying that on the father's tomb the alleged embezzler did not (even) spend 25 minae out of the 5000 drachma (ie 50 minae) claimed." [How do you do these quotes?]

Oh, sorry, no: mnas can't be genitive here ("of 25 a mina"?!), it's acc.pl., direct object of analwsai. Your understanding of the meaning is right, it's your understanding of the grammar that's wrong.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby Markos » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:50 pm

mwh wrote: What doesn't emerge from Markos' fine "levels" (all good except in this respect) is that "ws men tois pleistois edokoun" is parenthetical, you can remove it without affecting the construction. Lit. "as they (X.&P.) seemed to most people" i.e. "(as most people thought)" or "(so most people reckoned)". The "men" (without an answering "de") suggests that not quite everyone thought so. The following participle, filotimhqentes ("angered," "pissed off," let's say), does not depend on edokoun. (If it did, it wouldn't be a participle but an infinitive.) Rather the "ws - edokoun" clause is subordinate to filotimhqentes, which is just a participle continuing the sentence: "... they sailed off, angered (as most thought) ..."


χαῖρε, φίλε!

I agree. That is a better analysis of the basic syntax of the sentence. I was indeed construing φιλοτιμηθέντες with ἐδόκουν ("they seemed to have been pissed off,") but you are right; I checked Smyth and L.S.J. and it appears δοκέω only takes the infinitive, not the participle, so it would have to have been ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθῆναι. So, the basic structure of the sentence, omitting the extraneous stuff and simplifying the word order, would be:

Ξενίας καὶ Πασίων ἀπέπλευσαν, φιλοτιμηθέντες, (ὡς ἐδόκουν μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις) ὅτι Κῦρος εἴα τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν.

This means I would have to revise a few of the helps I provided above (the meaning, though, is actually pretty much the same, but the syntax is slightly different) viz:

Ἀχιλλεύς μένει ἐν σκήνει, φιλοτιμούμενος (ὡς Ἀχιλλεύς δοκεῖ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἀνθρώποις) ὅτι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων εἷλε τὴν κόρην τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως.

and:

John McCain καὶ Mitt Romney ἔκλαυσαν, φιλοτιμηθέντες (ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν) ὅτι ὁ λαὸς φιλεῖ τὸν Barack Obama.

The parenthesis makes all the difference. I just failed to see the phrase as parenthetical. Thanks again for that.

Hope you don't mind my shoving my oar in. I'm new here, and having fun.


No, not at all. As David has said, we are both amateurs in this, and if these helps are to be helpful we would need help from others in correcting/revising our efforts.
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby Markos » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:57 pm

I just found an actual unadapted sentence from the Anabasis that would serve very well as a help to unpack our sentence, since the syntax is almost identical, and yet the sentence is much shorter and easier to process. The word order, and even the punctuation, make all the difference.

Anabasis 6,iii,25:
καὶ οἱ πολέμιοι δέ, ὥς γ' ἡμῖν ἐδόκουν, τοῦτο δείσαντες ἀπῆλθον.


Again, here is our target sentence for reference, with the base syntax highlighted to show how similar it is to the sentence above.

Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 wrote:
καὶ Ξενίας ὁ Ἀρκὰς στρατηγὸς καὶ Πασίων ὁ Μεγαρεὺς ἐμβάντες εἰς πλοῖον καὶ τὰ πλείστου ἄξια ἐνθέμενοι ἀπέπλευσαν, ὡς μὲν τοῖς πλείστοις ἐδόκουν φιλοτιμηθέντες ὅτι τοὺς στρατιώτας αὐτῶν τοὺς παρὰ Κλέαρχον ἀπελθόντας ὡς ἀπιόντας εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα πάλιν καὶ οὐ πρὸς βασιλέα εἴα Κῦρος τὸν Κλέαρχον ἔχειν.


David, I assume you had no problem processing the first sentence? If so, I take that as some vindication of the usefulness of the method.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby daivid » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:58 pm

mwh wrote:Oh, sorry, no: mnas can't be genitive here ("of 25 a mina"?!), it's acc.pl., direct object of analwsai. Your understanding of the meaning is right, it's your understanding of the grammar that's wrong.


Oh then it really is irrelavant to genetive of value. Thanks for setting me right.

mwh wrote:" [How do you do these quotes?]
.

Hit the quote button at the top of the page you are replying to and then edit out the stuff you don't want to keep.
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Re: illustrating Xenophon, Anabasis 1:4,7 - a start

Postby mwh » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:53 am

Thanks daivid. I can now do quotes.

And thanks to both of you for your friendly welcome and gracious reception of my intervening, which I'm so glad you found helpful.
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