Ave Maria

[IreneY]

Hello everyone

In another site someone has asked for a translation of the Spanish translation of "ave Maria". While I may never do it (he hasn't given any more information and I can only assume he doesn't want a translation into modern Greek ) it got me thinking. You see the Greek "version" does not include the last part as far as I know. I'm talking about the

Sancta María, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatóribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostræ.

Or, in English

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

So it either doesn't exist or I cannot find it.

There's also the whole "κεχαÏ￾ιτωμένη" issue. What am I to do with it if I don't just use my amazing copy/paste abilities? Do I go into all the theological debate behind it for a simple translation? Do I explain the "chaire" debate? Ergo, I'll probably sit this one out.

Anyway, although Bible Greek is not my strongest suit when it comes to composing in it specially when we are talking about a prayer, I thought I'd give it a try.

Ἁγία ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτεÏ￾ (τοῦ) Θεοῦ (should I reverse the order I wander?) /Θεοτόκε ὑπέÏ￾/πεÏ￾ί á½￾μῶν τῶν ἀμαÏ￾τωλῶν Ï€Ï￾οσεÏ￾χου, νῦν καί τήν τοῦ ἠμῶν θανάτου á½£Ï￾α.

How many mistakes have I made and do you have any suggestions? As far as "Θεοτόκε" goes, I know that it's not a) an exact translation of "mother of God" b) dated from the first century A.D but a) it is often translated as "mother of God" so I thought it may be a viable alternative and b) neither is the prayer

[modus.irrealis]

To make some random comments:

If part of the original Latin is right out of the bible, I'd think it'd be expected you would just take that out of the Greek bible, no matter the issues involved.

I looked through some prayers and one did start ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτηÏ￾ Θεοῦ with the nominative used as vocative, so you can also consider that. (There's also a slight accent error in your μῆτεÏ￾.)

If you want to go with Θεοτόκος, I guess to make it feel more authentically Greek, wouldn't you have to go the whole way and change Ἁγία ΜαÏ￾ία as well (and make sure you throw in enough adjectives like ἄχÏ￾αντος and ὑπεÏ￾ευλογημένη )? Personally, I think going literal here would best preserve its "Western" feel.

Praying always seems to be ὑπέÏ￾, although I couldn't find anywhere where Mary was being asked to pray -- it was always something like ταῖς εá½￾χαῖς (or even more commonly Ï€Ï￾εσβείαις) ταῖς σαῖς, but I don't think the verb would change anything.

And with τήν τοῦ ἠμῶν θανάτου á½£Ï￾α[ν], I'm not sure the accusative works here. If you just naively translate the Latin, you get (á¼￾ν) τῇ á½¥Ï￾á¾³ τοῦ θανάτου ἡμῶν, it sounds reasonably biblical -- I think putting the "of our death" between the article and á½¥Ï￾α is "too" classical, but that's a judgment call of course.

[Bert]

If part of the original Latin is right out of the bible, I'd think it'd be expected you would just take that out of the Greek bible, no matter the issues involved.

Slim chance finding that in the Bible.

I looked through some prayers and one did start ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτηÏ￾ Θεοῦ with the nominative used as vocative, so you can also consider that. (There's also a slight accent error in your μῆτεÏ￾.)

Either she changed it before you posted your message or I am missing something. The μήτηÏ￾ in your "ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτηÏ￾ Θεοῦ" and her μήτεÏ￾ in Ἁγία ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτεÏ￾ look correct to me.

[modus.irrealis]

Slim chance finding that in the Bible.

Part of the Ave Maria is right out of Luke.

Either she changed it before you posted your message or I am missing something. The μήτηÏ￾ in your "ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτηÏ￾ Θεοῦ" and her μήτεÏ￾ in Ἁγία ΜαÏ￾ία ΜήτεÏ￾ look correct to me.

I was just offering the nominative μήτηÏ￾ as an other possibility -- the vocative is accentuated μῆτεÏ￾ not μήτεÏ￾, right?

[IreneY]

First of all thank you very, very much guys! You are the best!


Modus


ΜῆτεÏ￾ right!

Accusative or dative? Now that's another thing that got me scratching my head. My natural "insticts" led me towards the dative but then this is a later addition to the text and by then, apart from those still fully immersed in atticism, most people used the accusative or the genitive in its place (or quite often used either the dative or one of the others with no apparent [to me] criteria) . I admit that my favourite translation would be in dative and with the word order I chose but then, as I said, I don't do much composing in ancient Greek in general and when I do it is invariably in classical Greek so there you go
But you are right about the word order so I'll follow your advice on the dative issue too (else it would sound too "modern" anyway)


Pile as many adjectives as I can on Mary eh? That was nasty but oh so funny. I agree that the "Holy Mary" sounds strange (to my ears) in Greek so, since it doesn't feel right to change it you are right, perhaps I should leave Theotokos out of it.

Bert thanks for the confirmation. Yes, as modus said part of it is out of Luke (and Mathew I think?) although as far as I remember the ... non-Greek version include the name of Jesus. But I'm sure we all know that and it's a relief to find out that I haven't forgot my Bible or have lost my touch in web-searching so badly as to miss something that would have been as obvious as that last part of the prayer I was referring to (what a convulted sentence!)

Anyway, that's the reason why I brough the "kecharitomeni" issue up; Copy/Pasting the Greek version wouldn't be an exact translation of the Latin one so you are right, I can't really use the Bible as I would like to

[Bert]

Bert thanks for the confirmation. Yes, as modus said part of it is out of Luke (and Mathew I think?)

The Ave Maria is taken from two pieces of the Bible and made into a prayer addressed to Mary (You will not find a prayer addressed to Mary in the Bible. Your question was about the third part.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

You will not find that in the Bible.

although as far as I remember the ... non-Greek version include the name of Jesus. But I'm sure we all know that and it's a relief to find out that I haven't forgot my Bible or have lost my touch in web-searching so badly as to miss something that would have been as obvious as that last part of the prayer I was referring to (what a convulted sentence!)

I was just offering the nominative μήτηÏ￾ as an other possibility -- the vocative is accentuated μῆτεÏ￾ not μήτεÏ￾, right?

You're right.
I stand corrected. In my defence, the grammar I used to check (Mounce) has it wrong as well. It didn't occur to me to check up on it.