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Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:37 am

Isaac Newton wrote:ἄνθρωπός τις πλούσιος ἦν, ὃς εἶχεν δοῦλον λεγόμενον Ἰωάννην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ πλούσιος ἐνέπαιζον Ἰωάννῃ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, “Ῥακά, ὁ θεός μισεῖ σε ὅτι ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”

καὶ παραχρῆμα ἔτι λαλοῦντος , ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ὤφθη καὶ ἐστάθη παρά Ἰωάννῃ, καὶ εἶπεν τῷ πλουσίῳ, τί δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι τοῦ ἄλλου ? ἤδη εἶ ὑπὸ κρίσιν, ὅτι ἐγένου πλούσιος ἐν δόλῳ.

ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐδούλευσεν σοι ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοσαῦτα ἔτη. διὰ τοῦτο, ὁ θεός ἀγαπᾷ αὐτὸν.

Very nice, Isaac. Here's my L2 paraphrase: (written very fast, did not look anything up, no doubt tons of mistakes.)

ἦν δέ τις ανὴρ πολλὰ χρήματα ἔχων. τούτῳ δ' ἦν δοῦλος τις. καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννης. ἐν δὲ τινι ἡμέρᾳ, ὁ πλούσιος, καταφρονῶν Ἰωάννου, εἶπε «ἄφρον, οὐ φιλεῖ σε ὁ θεὸς. ἐδούλωσε γάρ σε.»

αὐτοῦ ἔτι λαλοῦντος, εὐθὺς ὤφθη πρὸ Ἰωάννου Θεοῦ ἄγγελος, τῷ πλουσίῳ λέγων «διὰ τί τούτου καταφρονεῖς? ἰδοῦ κέκρισαι σύγε. ἐκ γὰρ δόλου τὰ χρήματά σου.

ὁ δ' Ἰωάννής σοι δεδούλωται πρὸς χρόνον μικρὸν ἵνα Θεὸς πειράζῃ τὸν Ἰωάννην, εἰ πίστος οὖτός ἐστιν ἢ οὔκ. πολλὰ δ' ἔτη ἐθεράπευέ σε δικαίως. αὐτὸν οὖν φιλεῖ ὁ Κύριος.»
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Would you prefer to work with the Greek texts ...by paraphrasing into your own Greek? [I am comfortable with any or all of those approaches]

If, Stephen, you wanted to do your own Greek paraphrase of Isaac's story, I would like to read (and hear) it.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Markos wrote:
Markos wrote:ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:The syntactic pattern is too heavy for that verb.

Can you explain this a bit. What do you mean by "heavy?"

While it is a pretty and neatly composed phrase on your part, I don't think that the verb is simple enough to be surrounded by so much information.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:The syntactic pattern is too heavy for that verb. This δουλόω contains in itself both an actual meaning and the omicron suffixed causal element. Adding past tense, perfective aspect, number, person, indirect object, subject and direct object makes a total of 9 morphosyntactic elements. 5-7 elements is more normal.

To be more idiomatic in your use of that type of causative, you could use a middle-passive form to reduce the valence (syntatical elements around the verb) by 1, OR you could split the meaning, by using a preceding phrase to describe a context from which the elements of meaning that you want to associate with ἐδούλωσέ could be implied.

Marcos, What do you make of this? Perhaps you could share some of the thoughts you have had so far about how you understand what I am saying, then we could discuss from there.

If I understand what you are saying, I sort of agree. Could we posit a general rule, that omicron causative verbs tend to avoid the τινα τινι construction except in those cases where they don't? Paul's
1 Cor 9:19: ἐλεύθερος γὰρ ὢν ἐκ πάντων, πᾶσιν ἐμαυτὸν ἐδούλωσα, ἵνα τοὺς πλείονας κερδήσω.

would thus be the exception that proves the rule that proves the exceptions. :lol:

Let's try it:

You could have

Οἰδίπους, τὸ φῶς ζητῶν, τετύφλωται.

Less likely:

τὸ φῶς τὸν Οἰδίπουν τετύφλωκε.

Less likely:

ἐτύφλωσε τὸ φῶς τὸν Οἰδίπουν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Marcos, What do you make of this?

Speaking only for myself, I want more territory and less map.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:58 am

Markos wrote:Very nice, Isaac. Here's my L2 paraphrase: (written very fast, did not look anything up, no doubt tons of mistakes.)

ἦν δέ τις ανὴρ πολλὰ χρήματα ἔχων. τούτῳ δ' ἦν δοῦλος τις. καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννης. ἐν δὲ τινι ἡμέρᾳ, ὁ πλούσιος, καταφρονῶν Ἰωάννου, εἶπε «ἄφρον, οὐ φιλεῖ σε ὁ θεὸς. ἐδούλωσε γάρ σε.»

αὐτοῦ ἔτι λαλοῦντος, εὐθὺς ὤφθη πρὸ Ἰωάννου Θεοῦ ἄγγελος, τῷ πλουσίῳ λέγων «διὰ τί τούτου καταφρονεῖς? ἰδοῦ κέκρισαι σύγε. ἐκ γὰρ δόλου τὰ χρήματά σου.

ὁ δ' Ἰωάννής σοι δεδούλωται πρὸς χρόνον μικρὸν ἵνα Θεὸς πειράζῃ τὸν Ἰωάννην, εἰ πίστος οὖτός ἐστιν ἢ οὔκ. πολλὰ δ' ἔτη ἐθεράπευέ σε δικαίως. αὐτὸν οὖν φιλεῖ ὁ Κύριος.»
.


Delightful Koine Marcos, closer to the NT style of apostle Luke .
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:46 am

Markos wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Would you prefer to work with the Greek texts ...by paraphrasing into your own Greek? [I am comfortable with any or all of those approaches]

If, Stephen, you wanted to do your own Greek paraphrase of Isaac's story, I would like to read (and hear) it.
Markos wrote:Very nice, Isaac. Here's my L2 paraphrase: (written very fast, did not look anything up, no doubt tons of mistakes.)

Ditto, and without proof reading to check for mistakes.

Isaac Newton wrote:ἄνθρωπός τις πλούσιος ἦν, ὃς εἶχεν δοῦλον λεγόμενον Ἰωάννην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ πλούσιος ἐνέπαιζον Ἰωάννῃ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, “Ῥακά, ὁ θεός μισεῖ σε ὅτι ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”

καὶ παραχρῆμα ἔτι λαλοῦντος , ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ὤφθη καὶ ἐστάθη παρά Ἰωάννῃ, καὶ εἶπεν τῷ πλουσίῳ, τί δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι τοῦ ἄλλου ? ἤδη εἶ ὑπὸ κρίσιν, ὅτι ἐγένου πλούσιος ἐν δόλῳ.

ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐδούλευσεν σοι ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοσαῦτα ἔτη. διὰ τοῦτο, ὁ θεός ἀγαπᾷ αὐτὸν.


Καλὸς ὁ δεσπότης μου καὶ εὐγενής. χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα. ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι. ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν. προσεῖπεν τῶι δεσπότηι μου λέγων ὅτι, σιώπησον τέκνον μου, μὴ βλασφήμησον τὸν ἀδελφόν σου. ἀγαπήσατε ἀλλήλους κατὰ θεόν καὶ μὴ κρίνοντες. γνῶθι ὡς τάχιστα σὺ καὶ ὁ νῦν δούλος σου κατακρίθητε ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ θεοῦ. μετὰ ταῦτα δίκαιος ἐγένετο ὁ δεσπότης μου φοβῶν τὸν θεὸν καὶ θάλπων ἐμέ τε καὶ τοὺς συνδούλους μου.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:16 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Thanks Barry for James 2:13, which gives us one example of this verb taking the genitive. Is this sufficient evidence that the verb just takes the genitive ?


I also cited Rom 11:18, which give another example of the verb taking the genitive. The verb appears only in the NT and the LXX in Greek literature, and the only two examples where it does take an object it takes the genitive. I consider that sufficient evidence, and so do the lexicographers.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:12 pm

Markos wrote:If I understand what you are saying, I sort of agree. Could we posit a general rule, that omicron
    causative
verbs tend to avoid the τινα τινι construction except in those cases where they don't? Paul's
1 Cor 9:19: ἐλεύθερος γὰρ ὢν ἐκ πάντων, πᾶσιν ἐμαυτὸν ἐδούλωσα, ἵνα τοὺς πλείονας κερδήσω.

would thus be the exception that proves the rule that proves the exceptions. :lol:

You are not wrong as far as you are right. You are talking about syntax pattern, I am talking about the weight of the elements within the pattern.

To see how your "exception" to your proposed rule informs your rule by adding the scale of light-to-heavy to the various syntactic elements, have a look at the following example. Although it comes into the surface grammar in a different number and person, the following phrase displays the same feature of weighting as your "exception".
Longus, Daphnis and Chloe,1.8.1 wrote:Καὶ κοινώσαντες ἀλλήλοις τὸ ὄναρ
relating the dream privately

How would you refine your definition in light of the weighting considerations?

Markos wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Marcos, What do you make of this?

Speaking only for myself, I want more territory and less map.
Idiomacy is a noble goal.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:31 am

Μᾶρκος τῷ Ἰσαακ καὶ τῷ ἑκηβόλῳ χαίρειν πλεῖστα ἐν Ἰησοῦ.
Isaac Newton wrote:ἄνθρωπός τις πλούσιος ἦν, ὃς εἶχεν δοῦλον λεγόμενον Ἰωάννην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ πλούσιος ἐνέπαιζον Ἰωάννῃ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, “Ῥακά, ὁ θεός μισεῖ σε ὅτι ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”

καὶ παραχρῆμα ἔτι λαλοῦντος , ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ὤφθη καὶ ἐστάθη παρά Ἰωάννῃ, καὶ εἶπεν τῷ πλουσίῳ, τί δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι τοῦ ἄλλου ? ἤδη εἶ ὑπὸ κρίσιν, ὅτι ἐγένου πλούσιος ἐν δόλῳ.

ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐδούλευσεν σοι ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοσαῦτα ἔτη. διὰ τοῦτο, ὁ θεός ἀγαπᾷ αὐτὸν.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:Καλὸς ὁ δεσπότης μου καὶ εὐγενής. χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα. ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι. ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν. προσεῖπεν τῶι δεσπότηι μου λέγων ὅτι, σιώπησον τέκνον μου, μὴ βλασφήμησον τὸν ἀδελφόν σου. ἀγαπήσατε ἀλλήλους κατὰ θεόν καὶ μὴ κρίνοντες. γνῶθι ὡς τάχιστα σὺ καὶ ὁ νῦν δούλος σου κατακρίθητε ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ θεοῦ. μετὰ ταῦτα δίκαιος ἐγένετο ὁ δεσπότης μου φοβῶν τὸν θεὸν καὶ θάλπων ἐμέ τε καὶ τοὺς συνδούλους μου.

χάριν σοι δίδωμι. φιλεῖ γὰρ τὰς παραφράσεις.

Very clever and creative to switch the story to the point of view of the slave. I think this is a method they use in ESL teaching. I also like the details you added that are implicit in Isaac's version. The fact that not only did I know the underlying meaning, but that I had further internalized that meaning by producing my own paraphrase, means that when I came to read yours there was a double L2 basis to make the input more comprehensible.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:μετὰ ταῦτα δίκαιος ἐγένετο ὁ δεσπότης μου φοβῶν τὸν θεὸν καὶ θάλπων ἐμέ τε καὶ τοὺς συνδούλους μου.

οἴμοι, φίλατε! δεῖ πάντας τὸν Θεὸν φοβεῖσθαι. ἀλλὰ τίς φοβεῖ τὸν Θεόν? ἴσως ἡ ἀμαρτία φοβεῖ τὸν Θεόν. ὁ δὲ Χριστὸν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν φοβεῖ.

The next logical thing is to do one from the point of view of the master.

πλούσιός εἰμι. ἐμοὶ δ' Ἰωάννης δουλοῦται. τούτῳ ἐμπαίζων, εἶπε «μῶρε! ὅσους Θεὸς δουλοῖ, τούτους μισεῖ.»

ταῦτα δὲ λέγων, εἶδον ἄγγελον ἐγγὺς τοῦ δοῦλός μου ἱστάμενον καὶ λέγοντα «οὐ καλῶς τὸν Ἰωάννην ὑβρίζεις. κριθήσῃ γὰρ σύγε διότι αἰσχροδερδὴ εἶ. ὁ δ' Ἰωάννης ὑπὸ Θεοῦ ἐδουλώθη. τοῦ δὲ γνῶναι τὴν πίστιν αὐτοῦ Θεὸς τὸν Ἰωάννην ἐδοκιμαζε.»

νῦν δὲ ταῦτα ἀκούσας, τοῦτο περὶ τοῦ δούλου μου, εὖ οἶδα. δουλεύων μοι, τῷ Θεῷ δεδούλευκε ὥστε ὁ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ Ἰωάννην τὸν δοῦλον.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Markos wrote:If I understand what you are saying, I sort of agree. Could we posit a general rule, that omicron
    causative
verbs tend to avoid the τινα τινι construction except in those cases where they don't? Paul's
1 Cor 9:19: ἐλεύθερος γὰρ ὢν ἐκ πάντων, πᾶσιν ἐμαυτὸν ἐδούλωσα, ἵνα τοὺς πλείονας κερδήσω.

would thus be the exception that proves the rule that proves the exceptions. :lol:

You are not wrong as far as you are right. You are talking about syntax pattern, I am talking about the weight of the elements within the pattern.

To see how your "exception" to your proposed rule informs your rule by adding the scale of light-to-heavy to the various syntactic elements, have a look at the following example. Although it comes into the surface grammar in a different number and person, the following phrase displays the same feature of weighting as your "exception".
Longus, Daphnis and Chloe,1.8.1 wrote:Καὶ κοινώσαντες ἀλλήλοις τὸ ὄναρ
relating the dream privately

How would you refine your definition in light of the weighting considerations?

TERRITORY: τὰ βρώματα οὐ ποιεῖ με τῷ Θεῷ κοινόν. τὰ βρώματα οὐ κοινοῖ με τῷ Θεῷ.
MAP: Again, what do you mean by "weighting?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80 ... y_relation
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:52 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Καλὸς ὁ δεσπότης μου καὶ εὐγενής. χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα. ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι. ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν. προσεῖπεν τῶι δεσπότηι μου λέγων ὅτι, σιώπησον τέκνον μου, μὴ βλασφήμησον τὸν ἀδελφόν σου. ἀγαπήσατε ἀλλήλους κατὰ θεόν καὶ μὴ κρίνοντες. γνῶθι ὡς τάχιστα σὺ καὶ ὁ νῦν δούλος σου κατακρίθητε ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ θεοῦ. μετὰ ταῦτα δίκαιος ἐγένετο ὁ δεσπότης μου φοβῶν τὸν θεὸν καὶ θάλπων ἐμέ τε καὶ τοὺς συνδούλους μου.


ἑκηβόλος, I'm having some difficulty understanding this (especially the second and third sentences). Could you translate all of it into English ? Would this be classed as Attic ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:47 am

Isaac Newton wrote:Would this be classed as Attic ?

It would be classed as poor Greek. Technically, it is my interlanguage, not properly formed Greek. That is natural and to be expected. Even if rules of understanding the language are properly formed and reasonable, it still takes a lot of experience to produce good Greek without reference to English as a reference, or to abstract rules.

With English to work from for meaning, it is easier to supply meaningful content, but it can confuse the grammar. Abstract rules can be useful for accuracy of form, but that is like mathematical composition.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:59 am

Isaac Newton wrote:ἑκηβόλος, I'm having some difficulty understanding this (especially the second and third sentences).

Could you translate all of it into English ?

How about paraphrase and corrections

ἑκηβόλος wrote:χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα.

The obvious problem is that half the verb is missing! σπαράξαντος.
ἐχθὲς δὲ ἑσπέρας γενομἐνης ἐν τῷ ἅπτεσθαι με τοὺς λυχνοὺς παρωργισμἐνος τῷ δεσπόπῃ ἔκραξα καὶ ἔῤῥιψα χαμαὶ μίαν τῶν λυχνιῶν τοῦ συντρίβειν αὐτήν. εἴδων με δὲ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ δεσπότου μου ὁ μικρότατος καὶ φωνάζων ἀπήγγειλε τῇ οἰκίᾳ ὅλῃ. παραμύθησας ἔδωκα πυραμίδια μελιττωμένα καὶ ᾔτησα αὐτὸν σιωπᾷν. αὐτὸς δὲ ταραχθεὶς ἀπὸ τῆς πρὶν ὀργῆς μοῦ προέδραμεν τῷ πατρὶ καὶ διήγητο τὰ πάντα. ἐπεῖτα ἠτωτησεν ἐκεῖνος εἰ ἀληθὴς ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ παιδός. κατένευσα δὲ ἐγώ.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι.

ἐμάστιγξε με ὁ κύριος μου καὶ ἐπετίμησεν λέγων, Σκάτα. ἐκτρωμα εἶ καὶ ὁ ἐλάχιστος τῶν ἀνθρώπων. συκάνθρωπε καὶ ἐπικατάρατοε. προώρισεν ὁ θεὸς κύριον με εἶναι καὶ δούλον σε.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν.


Sorry, some missing elements there.
ἄρας πάλιν τὸ ξύλον τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἐνδεδυμένος ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν.

Clearer mud now?
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:31 pm

τοὺς φίλους Μᾶρκος ἀσπάζεται ἐν Κυρίῳ.
Isaac Newton wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Καλὸς ὁ δεσπότης μου καὶ εὐγενής. χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα. ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι. ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν. προσεῖπεν τῶι δεσπότηι μου λέγων ὅτι, σιώπησον τέκνον μου, μὴ βλασφήμησον τὸν ἀδελφόν σου. ἀγαπήσατε ἀλλήλους κατὰ θεόν καὶ μὴ κρίνοντες. γνῶθι ὡς τάχιστα σὺ καὶ ὁ νῦν δούλος σου κατακρίθητε ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ θεοῦ. μετὰ ταῦτα δίκαιος ἐγένετο ὁ δεσπότης μου φοβῶν τὸν θεὸν καὶ θάλπων ἐμέ τε καὶ τοὺς συνδούλους μου.

ἑκηβόλος, I'm having some difficulty understanding this (especially the second and third sentences). Could you translate all of it into English ?

ἑκηβόλος wrote:How about paraphrase and corrections...

Yes, this would be my preference, though Isaac might have other ideas. Note that the few mistakes you made had virtually no effect on my ability to understand 95% of what you wrote, without having to look anything up.

Again, 1. I loved Isaac's original μῦθος, and I loved the fact that unlike other pedagogical compositions, it was not based on an English original. 2. I loved ἑκηβόλος' original paraphrase. 3. I loved ἑκηβόλος' secondary paraphrase (and expansion!) of his own paraphrase of Isaac's original story.

But let me try to do my own paraphrase of ἑκηβόλος' original paraphrase, with the idea of leveling it down to see if it helps Isaac understand it better.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Καλὸς ὁ δεσπότης μου καὶ εὐγενής.

καλός ἐστιν ὁ κύριός μου καὶ πλούσιος.
ἑκηβόλος wrote: χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα.

ἐχθὲς φέρων τὸ φῶς, ἥμαρτον. τὸ γὰρ φῶς ἔπεσε ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου πρὸς τὴν γῆν. καὶ ἔκραξα ἐν φωνῇ μεγαλῇ.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι.

ὁ δὲ κύριός μου ἔτυψέ με. καὶ κατακαυχώμενός μου, εἶπε οὖτος «θεός τις μισεῖ σε. ἐποίησε γάρ σε δοῦλον.»
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν.

ὁ δὲ κύριός μου πάλιν ἔλαβε τὴν ῥάβδον καὶ ἐθέλησε πάλιν τύμπτεῖν με. καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἔφάνη μεθ ἡμῶν ἀνήρ τις. καὶ οὗτος ἐφόρησε ἐσθῆτα λαμπράν, ὡς ἄγγελός τις.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:προσεῖπεν τῶι δεσπότηι μου λέγων ὅτι, σιώπησον τέκνον μου, μὴ βλασφήμησον τὸν ἀδελφόν σου.

εἶπε δὲ ὁ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς τὸν κύριόν μου «μὴ λέγε, ὦ υἰέ μου, κακοὺς λόγους πρὸς τὸν ἀδελφόν σου.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἀγαπήσατε ἀλλήλους κατὰ θεόν καὶ μὴ κρίνοντες.

θέλει γὰρ Θεὸς ὑμᾶς φιλεῖν ἀλλήλους καὶ μὴ κρίνειν ἀλλήλους.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:γνῶθι ὡς τάχιστα σὺ καὶ ὁ νῦν δούλος σου κατακρίθητε ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ θεοῦ.

καὶ τοῦτο δεῖ σε γιγνώσκειν. ταχέως σὺ καὶ Ἰωάννης ὁ δοῦλος σου (νῦν μὲν δοῦλός ἐστι, ἔπειτα δὲ ὁ ἀδελφός σου ἔσται.) στήσεσθε πρὸ προσώπου Θεοῦ. καὶ κρινήσει ὑμᾶς Θεός.»
ἑκηβόλος wrote:μετὰ ταῦτα δίκαιος ἐγένετο ὁ δεσπότης μου φοβούμενος τὸν θεὸν καὶ θάλπων ἐμέ τε καὶ τοὺς συνδούλους μου.

καὶ ἀκούσας ταῦτα, ὁ κύριός μου εὐσεβὴς ἐγένετο. τῷ δὲ Θεῷ προσεκύνησε. καὶ νῦν ὁ κύριός μου ἀγαπᾷ με καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους δούλους.
Isaac Newton wrote:Would this be classed as Attic ?

Yes, I think for the most part ἑκηβόλος writes what is essentially Attic. He has a tendency to use fairly rare words. He is at his best when he adds explanatory photos. He makes the top ten list of my favorite Modern Ancient Greek writers.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:Would this be classed as Attic ?

Technically, it is my interlanguage, not properly formed Greek.

This is an important word. In a sense, all of us who compose Greek for pedagogical reasons are writing in an interlanguage. But there is the more restricted sense for Greek that is written specifically with an English reader in mind so as to make it (overly) comprehensible, e.g. Coderch's Greek notes to the Little Prince. Interlanguage can be leveled up or down.

ἔρρωσθε ἐν Ἰησοῦ.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:44 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:ἑκηβόλος, I'm having some difficulty understanding this (especially the second and third sentences).

Could you translate all of it into English ?

How about paraphrase and corrections

ἑκηβόλος wrote:χθὲς σπάσαντος μου λυχνιαν ἐφώνησα.

The obvious problem is that half the verb is missing! σπαράξαντος.
ἐχθὲς δὲ ἑσπέρας γενομἐνης ἐν τῷ ἅπτεσθαι με τοὺς λυχνοὺς παρωργισμἐνος τῷ δεσπόπῃ ἔκραξα καὶ ἔῤῥιψα χαμαὶ μίαν τῶν λυχνιῶν τοῦ συντρίβειν αὐτήν. εἴδων με δὲ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ δεσπότου μου ὁ μικρότατος καὶ φωνάζων ἀπήγγειλε τῇ οἰκίᾳ ὅλῃ. παραμύθησας ἔδωκα πυραμίδια μελιττωμένα καὶ ᾔτησα αὐτὸν σιωπᾷν. αὐτὸς δὲ ταραχθεὶς ἀπὸ τῆς πρὶν ὀργῆς μοῦ προέδραμεν τῷ πατρὶ καὶ διήγητο τὰ πάντα. ἐπεῖτα ἠτωτησεν ἐκεῖνος εἰ ἀληθὴς ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ παιδός. κατένευσα δὲ ἐγώ.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἐφραγέλλωσέν με καὶ ἐπιτίμησεν λέγων ὅτι κατήρθης ὑπὸ θεοῦ τινὸς δούλος ἐῖναι.

ἐμάστιγξε με ὁ κύριος μου καὶ ἐπετίμησεν λέγων, Σκάτα. ἐκτρωμα εἶ καὶ ὁ ἐλάχιστος τῶν ἀνθρώπων. συκάνθρωπε καὶ ἐπικατάρατοε. προώρισεν ὁ θεὸς κύριον με εἶναι καὶ δούλον σε.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἀρας πάλιν τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν.


Sorry, some missing elements there.
ἄρας πάλιν τὸ ξύλον τοῦ ῥαπίσαι με, ἰδοῦ ἄνθρωπος ἐν ἱμάτιωι λευκῶι ἐνδεδυμένος ἔστη ἔμποσθεν ἡμῶν.

Clearer mud now?


I think so..I don't know what παρωργισμἐνος means, and the following expression παραμύθησας ἔδωκα πυραμίδια μελιττωμένα which I guessed. Here's my understanding of what you're saying :


Yesterday evening while I was handling [..] the candlestands for my master I dashed one of them on the ground breaking it into pieces. My master's youngest son, having seen this, announced it loudly to the entire household. I bribed him with a toy pyramid(??) and begged of him to be silent. However he impulsively dashed away from me and told everyone. Afterward,the master asked if his child's account was accurate. I nodded .


Am I way off ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:31 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:παραμύθησας ἔδωκα πυραμίδια μελιττωμένα καὶ ᾔτησα αὐτὸν σιωπᾷν.

Isaac Newton wrote:I bribed him with a toy pyramid(??) and begged of him to be silent. Am I way off ?

1. χαῖρε, φίλε Ἰσαακ.
2. I should wait and let ἑκηβόλος answer.
3. No, you are not really far off. You got that it was a bribe. On one level, the detail of what the bribe was does not effect the meaning of the story.
4. Like you, I guessed at what πυραμίδια μελιττωμένα meant. I thought it meant some sort of pyramid-shaped candy. But looking it up in Brill I find that a secondary meaning of πυραμίς was some sort of cake. μελιττωμένα would be, I think, from a variant from μελιτόω, I cause to be sweet= I sweeten with honey. Thus "I gave him a sweetened, presumably pyramid-shaped cake." Didn't I tell you that he likes to use rare words. :lol:

But remember that meaning is always only approximate. At what point does it matter whether you understand something 90%, or 95%, or 99%, given that 100% is impossible?

RE: μελιτόω:

MAP: μελιτόω is another one of those omicron causative verbs that may or not avoid the τινα τινι construction due to weighting considerations. (and note that I am still waiting for Stephen to tell me what "weighting" means. :D
TERRITORY: τὴν ζωὴν μεμελιτώκασιν ἐμοὶ οἱ υἱοί μου.

εὐτυχοῦ.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:07 pm

Markos wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:παραμύθησας ἔδωκα πυραμίδια μελιττωμένα καὶ ᾔτησα αὐτὸν σιωπᾷν.

Isaac Newton wrote:I bribed him with a toy pyramid(??) and begged of him to be silent. Am I way off ?

3. No, you are not really far off. You got that it was a bribe. On one level, the detail of what the bribe was does not effect the meaning of the story.

Looking it up now, παραμυθέομαι is deponent. I used that verb in preference to παρακαλέω because I couldn't remember whether the epsilon of παρακαλέω lengthens in the participle.
Markos wrote:RE: μελιτόω:
Yes. One too many taus as I remembered it.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:45 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἐν τῷ ἅπτεσθαι με τοὺς λυχνοὺς

while I was handling [..] the candlestands

πῶς λέγεται τὰ μικρὰ κεραμικὰ σκεύη πεπληρωμένα ἐλαίου; ἔστι τὸ ἀρσενικὸν παροξύτονον λύχνος ἢ τὸ ὀξύτονον λυχνὸς ἢ τὸ οὐδέτερον λύχνον ἢ λυχνὸν;

καὶ πῶς λέγεται τὸ μεταφέρειν πῦρ ἐκ τῆς καμίνου ἢ ἐκ τῆς ἑστίας εἰς ἐκεῖνα; οὐ τὸ ἅπτεσθαι;

παρωργισμἐνος

παροργίζομαι - μέμφεται ἄλλος καὶ οὐκ ἐγώ.

ὁ δούλος λέγει, ὅτι ἐκεῖνος ὁ δεσπότης παρώργισεν με καὶ ἐγὼ παρωργισάμην πρὸς αὐτόν.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:57 am

χαίρετε, ὦ φίλοι!
ἑκηβόλος wrote:πῶς λέγεται τὰ μικρὰ κεραμικὰ σκεύη πεπληρωμένα ἐλαίου; ἔστι τὸ ἀρσενικὸν παροξύτονον λύχνος...

εὖγε, φίλτατε! τὴν γὰρ δύναμιν τούτου τοῦ λόγου καλῶς δέδωκας.

πβλ:

λύχνος -- φῶς δυνάμενον φέρεσθαι (Λ.Σ.Κ) πήλινός ἐστιν ὁ λύχνος καὶ ἔλαιον καίεται διὰ θρυαλλίδος. (Caruso)
ἑκηβόλος wrote:καὶ πῶς λέγεται τὸ μεταφέρειν πῦρ ἐκ τῆς καμίνου ἢ ἐκ τῆς ἑστίας εἰς ἐκεῖνα; οὐ τὸ ἅπτεσθαι;

νομίζω ὅτι τὸ «ἅπτειν» σημαίνει «φέρειν (ἢ ποιεῖν?) πῦρ» καὶ τὸ «ἅπτεσθαι/ἅψασθαι» σημαίνει «θιγγάνειν, τιθέναι τὴν χεῖρα ἐπί τινος»

ἔρρωσθε
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:04 am

Markos wrote:Again, 1. I loved Isaac's original μῦθος, and I loved the fact that unlike other pedagogical compositions, it was not based on an English original. 2. I loved ἑκηβόλος' original paraphrase. 3. I loved ἑκηβόλος' secondary paraphrase (and expansion!) of his own paraphrase of Isaac's original story.

But let me try to do my own paraphrase of ἑκηβόλος' original paraphrase, with the idea of leveling it down to see if it helps Isaac understand it better.

Are these paraphrases of paraphrases examples of recursion in the territory-map model that you introduced. The imaginary events described are the territory and the map is the desription. Then taking the language as the territory, the first paraphrase is the map, taking the imagined reality, the intitial description and the two paraphrases as the territory next paraphrase is the map. Working from the non-final step in the recursion a parallel map has been produced too. Now there is a diversion in the recursion. :lol:
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:11 am

Markos wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:καὶ πῶς λέγεται τὸ μεταφέρειν πῦρ ἐκ τῆς καμίνου ἢ ἐκ τῆς ἑστίας εἰς ἐκεῖνα; οὐ τὸ ἅπτεσθαι;

νομίζω ὅτι τὸ «ἅπτειν» σημαίνει «φέρειν (ἢ ποιεῖν?) πῦρ» καὶ τὸ «ἅπτεσθαι/ἅψασθαι» σημαίνει «θιγγάνειν, τιθέναι τὴν χεῖρα ἐπί τινος»

Φωσφόρε. ἄλλο τι ἐρώτημα ἔχω. Συμπίπτει τὸ ἅπτειν τῷ τι ἢ τῷ τινός;
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:42 am

̄
Markos wrote:MAP: μελιτόω is another one of those omicron causative verbs that may or not avoid the τινα τινι construction due to weighting considerations. (and note that I am still waiting for Stephen to tell me what "weighting" means. :D
TERRITORY: τὴν ζωὴν μεμελιτώκασιν ἐμοὶ οἱ υἱοί μου.

The weighting of elements is little more than common sense really. Weight is what requires effort to carry- the heavier something is, the more effort required to carry it. The use of physical language - the language of physics is just to make what I'm saying easier to visualise or imagine in action.

Grammatically, when the reciprocal pronoun is used, we are only observing some structuring of the relationship between the subject and him/her/it/themseves. In that case, we do not need to draw on much of our mental resources. Compare the "weight" of different types of nominals.

A noun requires you to draw on your knowledge of the world in various ways and to bring your understanding of the world to the text, while most pronouns works with what is already in short-terms / working memory. Of the pronouns, the reciprocal pronoun following a verb only introduces a little structure to the what we already know and understand. In NSW, at least, retrofitting an extra seatbelt in a vehicle is possible, so long as the total weight of passengers on any of the bolts does not exceed the vehicle manufacturers' design specifications. As uncomfortable and cramped as it mat be to travel in a car like that, an extra passenger could be safely carried. In that way, that statement of Paul's and the example from Longus's novel contain an "extra" lightweight passenger in the syntax. In other words, somebody would need to slow down in their reading (below their normal reading speed range) to be able to comprehend what you have written. If they continued to travel at normal speed, there is too much processing required in too short a time, for somebidy to compose in real time, and for another person to follow.

For verbs, those without a full meaning of their own, such as τίθημι are less heavy in themselves than those with a complete meaning, and those such as these omicron short vowel verbs, carrying both a meaning and a relationship between the elements of a phrase already have weight within themselves. That is to say that the verb itself is already drawing in a range of processing resources to be undersunderstood. It is not considerate to add too much else.

Using the middle-passive voice seems to distance the action from personal involvement of the reader to observation - perhaps generalising and distancing the observer from the immediacy of what is happening. In the way thatit is different to watch a conversation than to be involved in it. In terms of these omicron stem verbs, that element distance itself allows for one to relax a little in understanding, not expecting to understand things so deeply, precisely or personally.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:39 am

Here’s something else I just composed:


στρουθίον τι ᾠκοδόμησεν φωλιά περὶ νοσσιὰς αὐτῆς ἐν τῇ βάτῳ  ἐπὶ τοῦ κρημνοῦ.

καὶ  ἰδού  ἐγενήθη ὡς τό στρουθίον συλλέγουσα ἦν τὴν τροφὴν περὶ τῶν  ἑαυτῶν νεοσσοων, ὄφις ἦλθεν εἰς τὴν νοσσιαν. Καὶ ἐπὶ τούτῳ τό στρουθίον  κατήντησεν καὶ ἐπτοήθη εὑρεῖν τὸν ὄφιν μέλλοντα ἀναλῶσαι τὴν ἑαυτῆς νοσσιὰν. καὶ τό στρουθίον φωνήσας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ εἶπεν, Κύριε ὄφις ζῇν οὐ θέλω χωρὶς τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα. δέομαι οὖν ὅτι πρῶτος εσθιεις   με καὶ οἱ σκώληκες ὃς εὕρηκά. εσθιῃς τὰ νοσσία πάλιν εἰς τὴν πλησμονὴν σου. συνεθετο δὲ ὁ πρόσπεινος ὄφις καὶ ἤγγισεν εἰς τό στρουθίον.

Ἐν τῷ μεταξὺ τό στρουθίον παρέστη πρὸς τὸν χείλος τοῦ κρημνοῦ. ὡς οὖν ὁ ὄφις ἐξανέτειλεν εἰς τὸ καταφαγείν αὐτήν, τό στρουθίον παραχρῆμα ἔπτετο , καὶ ἰδού ὁ ἅρπαξ ὄφις ἐπέπεσεν ἐκ τοῦ κρημνοῦ, κἀκεῖνος ἀπώλετο.


A certain sparrow built a nest for her brood in  a shrub  near a cliff.

And behold it happened that as the sparrow was away  gathering nourishment for her young, a serpent came into the nest. Just then, the sparrow arrived and  was alarmed to find the snake about to consume her brood. So the sparrow said in a loud voice, "Lord serpent, I do not wish to live without my young. I beseech you therefore to first consume me and the worms which I've brought back. Thereafter you may eat to your satisfaction the chicks.” The famished serpent agreed and approached the sparrow.

In the meanwhile the sparrow had perched herself on the edge of the cliff. As therefore the serpent sprang himself forward in order to consume the sparrow, she instantly took to flight and behold the rapacious snake fell off the cliff , and perished.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:39 pm

φωλιά - case?
περὶ- check in the reference material for a better preposition .
συλλέγουσα ἦν - what is the discourse function of this periphrastic tense? Is that function served here?
περὶ - as above.
ἑαυτῶν - Is this a possesive pronoun or possessive adjective?
ἐπτοήθη εὑρεῖν - use a preposition rather than a verb after ἐπτοήθη.
ὄφις - case.
χωρὶς - what case does this take
οἱ σκώληκες are they also eating?
ὃς - why is this nominative? Why is nominative needed in this phrase?
πλησμονὴν - Markos will say you're using rare words now.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:21 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:Here’s something else I just composed:


στρουθίον τι ᾠκοδόμησεν φωλιά περὶ νοσσιὰς αὐτῆς ἐν τῇ βάτῳ  ἐπὶ τοῦ κρημνοῦ.



In addition to the corrections that ἐκηβολος offered, it's always helpful to look for parallels to see how a native speaker might handle it:

http://www.mythfolklore.net/aesopica/chambry/347.htm

Ξένη χελιδὼν ἡ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις συνοικοῦσα ἐν δικαστηρίῳ τὴν καλιὰν ἑαυτῆς ἔπηξεν ἐν τοίχῳ, κἀκεῖσε νεοττῶν ἕπτα γίνεται μήτηρ...
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:46 pm

τὸν χείλος - a noun and its article should agree in 3 ways - number, gender and case. [Studies show that native speakers of Modern Greek make errors like this till they are 8 or 9 years old and especially those from Thrace, whose home language is not Modern Greek.]
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:50 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:Here’s something else I just composed:


στρουθίον τι ᾠκοδόμησεν φωλιά περὶ νοσσιὰς αὐτῆς ἐν τῇ βάτῳ  ἐπὶ τοῦ κρημνοῦ.



In addition to the corrections that ἐκηβολος offered, it's always helpful to look for parallels to see how a native speaker might handle it:

http://www.mythfolklore.net/aesopica/chambry/347.htm

Ξένη χελιδὼν ἡ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις συνοικοῦσα ἐν δικαστηρίῳ τὴν καλιὰν ἑαυτῆς ἔπηξεν ἐν τοίχῳ, κἀκεῖσε νεοττῶν ἕπτα γίνεται μήτηρ...


That looks like Attic :


Χελιδὼν καὶ δράκων.

Ξένη χελιδὼν ἡ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις συνοικοῦσα ἐν δικαστηρίῳ τὴν καλιὰν ἑαυτῆς ἔπηξεν ἐν τοίχῳ, κἀκεῖσε νεοττῶν ἕπτα γίνεται μήτηρ. Ὄφις δὲ ἐκ τρώγλης συρεὶς πάντας κατέφαγεν. Ἡ δὲ χελιδὼν θρηνοῦσα· Οἴμοι, ἔλεγεν, ὅτι ἔνθα πάντες δικαιοῦνται, ἐγὼ ἠδικήθην.
Τοὺς ἀδίκῳ γνώμῃ τυραννοῦντας τοὺς πέλας ἐν παραβάσει νόμου ὁ μῦθος ἐλέγχει.



THE SWALLOW AND THE SNAKE

Spring had arrived, and a twittering swallow (that bird who dwells in human houses) built her nest in the wall of the place which is home to the elderly jurors of the court. In that hall of justice, the mother bird gave birth to seven baby birds. But a snake came creeping out from his hole and devoured all the chicks one by one. The wretched mother bewailed the untimely demise of her children and said, 'Woe is me, and woe is my lot in life! This is the place where mankind's laws and judgments are made but I, a swallow, am the victim of injustice and have to run away.'


Does not seem like a verbatim translation however. The very first word ένη gave me trouble. I think it is a participle form of έναπτο meanng "twittering," "chattering," "annoying.”
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:31 am

Isaac Newton wrote:
Ξένη χελιδὼν ἡ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις συνοικοῦσα ἐν δικαστηρίῳ

...
Does not seem like a verbatim translation however. The very first word ένη gave me trouble. I think it is a participle form of έναπτο meanng "twittering," "chattering," "annoying.”

Actually, "twittering" is not a translation of the text you are deciphering. The translation is of Babrius' version's opening word (not Perry's).
Ξουθὴ χελιδών, ἡ πάροικος ἀνθρώπων,
ἔαρος καλιὴν ηὐθέτιζεν ἐν τοίχῳ,
ὅπου γερόντων οἶκος ἦν δικαστήρων·


Ξουθὴ is the feminine form of an adjective ξουθός "twittering".

Ξένη, which the text you quoted has, is simply the feminine of ξένος, a common enough word.

How can I find έναπτο in the dictionary?
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:55 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote: (1) φωλιά - case?
(2) περὶ- check in the reference material for a better preposition .
συλλέγουσα ἦν - what is the discourse function of this periphrastic tense? Is that function served here?
περὶ - as above.
(3) ἑαυτῶν - Is this a possesive pronoun or possessive adjective?
ἐπτοήθη εὑρεῖν - use a preposition rather than a verb after ἐπτοήθη.
ὄφις - case.
(4) χωρὶς - what case does this take
(5) οἱ σκώληκες are they also eating?
ὃς - why is this nominative? Why is nominative needed in this phrase?
πλησμονὴν - Markos will say you're using rare words now.


Thanks for your thoughts:

(1) φωλιά is accusative in my sentence—

ονομαστική φωλιά φωλιές
γενική φωλιάς φωλιών
αιτιατική φωλιά φωλιές
κλητική φωλιά φωλιές


(2) Would ὑπέρ with genitive or πρός with accusative work better ?

(3) How about ὑπέρ τῶν νεοσσοων ἑαυτῆς ?

(4) How about χωρὶς τῶν τέκνων ἐμοῦ

(5) τὰ σκουλήκια..ὅ
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:20 am

Hi Isaak,
Supplementing the extensive knowledge you have of NTG (and especially the Gospel of Luke) with dictionary look ups and recourse to online translators are valid ways to help you compose, but those methods require you to develop some skills, so that you can do them well. Let's look at few ways that you could improve your methodology and get better results, ie more idiomatic compositions:

Isaac Newton wrote:(1) φωλιά is accusative in my sentence—

ονομαστική φωλιά φωλιές
γενική φωλιάς φωλιών
αιτιατική φωλιά φωλιές
κλητική φωλιά φωλιές

The syntax of your sentence requires the accusative, but it is only in Modern Greek that the accusative is formed without the addition of the nu. The earlier periods of the language, it has another case called the δοτική and it differentiates between the forms of the nominative and accusative plural.

FYI, the spelling (ie pronunciation) of this word that you've given is Modern Greek, while in the earlier period it is φωλεά. The information contained in LSJ for this word is at the very extreme edge of their coverage period, so while accurate as far as it goes, is accurate with the proviso that it is a word , if you like appears in LSJ's family portrait as a neonate, but actually goes on to grow up to become a valuable and durable member of the family of Greek words, albiet with the chnge from epsilon to iota.

Isaac Newton wrote:(2) Would ὑπέρ with genitive or πρός with accusative work better ?

They might, but there are other ways to tackle this. Unless each of the details are important to you, expressing your thoughts in the surface grammar by the use of a verb, such as νεοσσεύω might be more to the point and perhaps more idiomatic.

Isaac Newton wrote:(3) How about ὑπέρ τῶν νεοσσοων ἑαυτῆς ?
Between the article and the noun is possible too.

English preposition like this are the result of the loss of the case system in English. That peculiarity in the history of English needn't form the basis of compositional choices in Greek. Following the English order of introduction of ideas, the prepositiona phrase you want is adverbial and usually comes after the verb. Adverbial elements, which set the context for an action regularly precede the verbs in the flow of the Greek. Another point to try to emulate is to try to move from the less certain to the more precise. There might be a preference for a word order such as, "She collected worms to feed her young", rather than, "She collected nouishment for her young".

Isaac Newton wrote:(4) How about χωρὶς τῶν τέκνων ἐμοῦ

If you work from a Modern Greek translation tool or have a background knowledge of Modern Greek, then words like these need to be noted and the Modern Greek idiom adjusted to that of the earlier period. If you identify a word that you get from the online translator as a preposition, then look it up in a NTG reference resource to check which case it governs.

Isaac Newton wrote:(5) τὰ σκουλήκια..ὃ

One of the features of phonological development from the late Koine to early Modern period is the change from ω to ου in some words. You can check whether words in Modern Greek displaying a ου diphthong had an omega in your target period, by looking them up in a Modern Greek dictionary. Look at this entry - σκουλήκι. Also, ὃν is singular, while τὰ σκουλήκια or οἱ σκώληκες are both plural.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:50 am

Isaac Newton wrote:
That looks like Attic :


And what's wrong with that? Attic and Koine are sufficiently close that some insight may still be derived from such considerations.

Does not seem like a verbatim translation however. The very first word ένη gave me trouble. I think it is a participle form of έναπτο meanng "twittering," "chattering," "annoying.”


You seem to have missed the first letter, which is Ξ, the upper case form of ξ.

And where did you derive εναπτο?
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:Hi Isaak,
Supplementing the extensive knowledge you have of NTG (and especially the Gospel of Luke) with dictionary look ups and recourse to online translators are valid ways to help you compose, but those methods require you to develop some skills, so that you can do them well. Let's look at few ways that you could improve your methodology and get better results, ie more idiomatic compositions:

Isaac Newton wrote:(1) φωλιά is accusative in my sentence—

ονομαστική φωλιά φωλιές
γενική φωλιάς φωλιών
αιτιατική φωλιά φωλιές
κλητική φωλιά φωλιές

The syntax of your sentence requires the accusative, but it is only in Modern Greek that the accusative is formed without the addition of the nu. The earlier periods of the language, it has another case called the δοτική and it differentiates between the forms of the nominative and accusative plural.

FYI, the spelling (ie pronunciation) of this word that you've given is Modern Greek, while in the earlier period it is φωλεά. The information contained in LSJ for this word is at the very extreme edge of their coverage period, so while accurate as far as it goes, is accurate with the proviso that it is a word , if you like appears in LSJ's family portrait as a neonate, but actually goes on to grow up to become a valuable and durable member of the family of Greek words, albiet with the chnge from epsilon to iota.

Isaac Newton wrote:(2) Would ὑπέρ with genitive or πρός with accusative work better ?

They might, but there are other ways to tackle this. Unless each of the details are important to you, expressing your thoughts in the surface grammar by the use of a verb, such as νεοσσεύω might be more to the point and perhaps more idiomatic.

Isaac Newton wrote:(3) How about ὑπέρ τῶν νεοσσοων ἑαυτῆς ?
Between the article and the noun is possible too.

English preposition like this are the result of the loss of the case system in English. That peculiarity in the history of English needn't form the basis of compositional choices in Greek. Following the English order of introduction of ideas, the prepositiona phrase you want is adverbial and usually comes after the verb. Adverbial elements, which set the context for an action regularly precede the verbs in the flow of the Greek. Another point to try to emulate is to try to move from the less certain to the more precise. There might be a preference for a word order such as, "She collected worms to feed her young", rather than, "She collected nouishment for her young".

Isaac Newton wrote:(4) How about χωρὶς τῶν τέκνων ἐμοῦ

If you work from a Modern Greek translation tool or have a background knowledge of Modern Greek, then words like these need to be noted and the Modern Greek idiom adjusted to that of the earlier period. If you identify a word that you get from the online translator as a preposition, then look it up in a NTG reference resource to check which case it governs.

Isaac Newton wrote:(5) τὰ σκουλήκια..ὃ

One of the features of phonological development from the late Koine to early Modern period is the change from ω to ου in some words. You can check whether words in Modern Greek displaying a ου diphthong had an omega in your target period, by looking them up in a Modern Greek dictionary. Look at this entry - σκουλήκι. Also, ὃν is singular, while τὰ σκουλήκια or οἱ σκώληκες are both plural.


Thanks for your thoughts. Appreciate them..

ἃ Instead of ὃ.
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:35 am

Isaac Newton wrote:Thanks for your thoughts:

(1) φωλιά is accusative in my sentence—

ονομαστική φωλιά φωλιές
γενική φωλιάς φωλιών
αιτιατική φωλιά φωλιές
κλητική φωλιά φωλιές



This is modern Greek, not ancient. You want φωλεός, and so the accusative φωλεόν. However, it's the wrong word. Better would be νοσσία.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:36 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:
That looks like Attic :


And what's wrong with that? Attic and Koine are sufficiently close that some insight may still be derived from such considerations.

Does not seem like a verbatim translation however. The very first word ένη gave me trouble. I think it is a participle form of έναπτο meanng "twittering," "chattering," "annoying.”


You seem to have missed the first letter, which is Ξ, the upper case form of ξ.

And where did you derive εναπτο?


Upper case is three horizontal , parallel lines without a vertical intersecting line through them, usually.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:51 am

Isaac Newton wrote:
Upper case is three horizontal , parallel lines without a vertical intersecting line through them, usually.


Yes, it does look a bit odd, but ἐκηβόλος and I had no trouble recognizing it. And where did you derive εναπτο?
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:48 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:Thanks for your thoughts:

(1) φωλιά is accusative in my sentence—

ονομαστική φωλιά φωλιές
γενική φωλιάς φωλιών
αιτιατική φωλιά φωλιές
κλητική φωλιά φωλιές



This is modern Greek, not ancient. You want φωλεός, and so the accusative φωλεόν. However, it's the wrong word. Better would be νοσσία.


You must have access to some really powerful "cheats." I'm a little envious.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:25 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:You must have access to some really powerful "cheats." I'm a little envious.


If "cheating" means "learning the language, then yes.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:28 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:(5) τὰ σκουλήκια..ὃ
...
ἃ Instead of ὃ.

You need to change the vowel of σκουλήκια in that phrase too.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:16 am

Isaac Newton wrote:στρουθίον τι ᾠκοδόμησεν φωλιά περὶ νοσσιὰς αὐτῆς ἐν τῇ βάτῳ  ἐπὶ τοῦ κρημνοῦ.

καὶ  ἰδού  ἐγενήθη ὡς τό στρουθίον συλλέγουσα ἦν τὴν τροφὴν περὶ τῶν  ἑαυτῶν νεοσσοων, ὄφις ἦλθεν εἰς τὴν νοσσιαν. Καὶ ἐπὶ τούτῳ τό στρουθίον  κατήντησεν καὶ ἐπτοήθη εὑρεῖν τὸν ὄφιν μέλλοντα ἀναλῶσαι τὴν ἑαυτῆς νοσσιὰν. καὶ τό στρουθίον φωνήσας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ εἶπεν, Κύριε ὄφις ζῇν οὐ θέλω χωρὶς τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα. δέομαι οὖν ὅτι πρῶτος εσθιεις   με καὶ οἱ σκώληκες ὃς εὕρηκά. εσθιῃς τὰ νοσσία πάλιν εἰς τὴν πλησμονὴν σου. συνεθετο δὲ ὁ πρόσπεινος ὄφις καὶ ἤγγισεν εἰς τό στρουθίον.

Ἐν τῷ μεταξὺ τό στρουθίον παρέστη πρὸς τὸν χείλος τοῦ κρημνοῦ. ὡς οὖν ὁ ὄφις ἐξανέτειλεν εἰς τὸ καταφαγείν αὐτήν, τό στρουθίον παραχρῆμα ἔπτετο , καὶ ἰδού ὁ ἅρπαξ ὄφις ἐπέπεσεν ἐκ τοῦ κρημνοῦ, κἀκεῖνος ἀπώλετο.

τοῦτον τὸν μῦθον φιλῶν, εὐχαριστῷ σοι γράψαντι αὐτόν.

Here's my paraphrase, using some of the verbiage from Aesop.

Χελιδών τις τὴν καλιὰν ἑαυτῆς ἔπηξεν ἐν τῇ βάτῳ ἐπὶ τοῦ κρημνοῦ.

ἐξέπτη δ' ὡς συλλέξουσα τροφὴν τοῖς νεοττοῖς. δράκων τις δ' ἐκ τρώγλης συρεὶς ἀφίκετο εἰς τὴν καλιάν. ἡ δὲ χελιδών, εὐρίσκουσα τὸν δράκοντα ἔχοντα ἐν νῷ τοὺς νεοττοὺς καταφαγεῖν, ἐταράχθη. ἐκέκραξεν οὖν καὶ εἶπε «ὦ φίλε ὄφι, θανεῖν θέλω, τῶν τέκνων μὴ ζῶντων. φάγε οὖν με πρῶτον καὶ τοὺς σκώληκας οὓς ἔλαβον. ἔπειτα δὲ σὺ φαγῇ τοὺς ἄλλους καὶ χορτάσεις.» ὁ δέ δράκων, μάλιστα πεινῶν, ὁμολογεῖ τούτοις. τῇ δὲ χελιδόνι ἐπλησίασεν ὁ δράκων.

ἐν δὲ τῷ μεταξὺ, ἡ χελιδὼν ἔστη πρὸς τὸ τοῦ κρημνοῦ χεῖλος. ὅτε οὖν ἀνέστη ὁ δράκων ἵνα ἁρπάζῃ τὴν χελιδόνα, ἡ μὲν ἐξέπτη σῶς, ὁ δ' ἀπὸ τοῦ κρημνοῦ πίπτων ἀπέθανεν.

And I'll add my own epimythium:

ὁ μῦθος πρὸς τοὺς πλεονέκτας εὔκαιρός ἐστιν.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Φωσφόρε. ἄλλο τι ἐρώτημα ἔχω. Συμπίπτει τὸ ἅπτειν τῷ τι ἢ τῷ τινός;

καλὸν ἐρώτημα τοῦτό ἐστιν. νομίζω ὅτι συμπίπτει τὸ ἅπτειν τῷ τι ἢ οὐκ τῷ τινος. λέγομεν γὰρ ταῦτα:

Μᾶρκος τὸν λύχνον ἅπτει. (= Μᾶρκος ποιεῖ τὸν λύχνον καιόμενον εἶναι.) Μᾶρκος τοῦ λύχνου ἅπτεται. (= Μᾶρκος ψηλαφᾷ τὸν λύχνον.)
ἑκηβόλος wrote:̄For verbs, those without a full meaning of their own, such as τίθημι are less heavy in themselves than those with a complete meaning, and those such as these omicron short vowel verbs, carrying both a meaning and a relationship between the elements of a phrase already have weight within themselves. That is to say that the verb itself is already drawing in a range of processing resources to be undersunderstood. It is not considerate to add too much else.

Thanks, Stephen, for the explanation. There is some truth in what you say.

They say there is nothing you can say about New York City that is not a little true, and at the same time not a little false. I sometimes think language is like that.

We can say, all things being equal, that heavy verbs tend to take fewer compliments than light verbs. And in language, like in life, all things are never equal.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:36 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:You must have access to some really powerful "cheats." I'm a little envious.


If "cheating" means "learning the language, then yes.

To use Krasden and Chomsky's term here for a moment, we might say that using the faculty of mind to short-cut the language acquisition process has some short-term benefits for communication and comprehension, but for long-term mastery, one needs to continue with acquisition to inform and simplify composition.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:48 am

Markos wrote:Thanks, Stephen, for the explanation. There is some truth in what you say.

However I may have explained my reasoning about how I think they came to be, my favourite authours - the ones I read most and try to emulate - use omicron short vowel verbs in simpler sentences, and the two exceptions involve the reflexive / reciprocal pronoun.

Markos wrote:They say there is nothing you can say about New York City that is not a little true, and at the same time not a little false. I sometimes think language is like that.

Ha ha. I'm the wrong person to be looking to for logic and non self-contradiction. I don't even think that aiming to eliminate self contradiction is a worthwhile life quest. When I hear talk about falsifiability applied to language, then I start wondering what model or process of simplification has been applied to vet language into a logically definable system. Laguage and not just logic is probably is found in what simplification into grammar has left out.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:29 am

Markos wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:
Here's my paraphrase, using some of the verbiage from Aesop.

Χελιδών τις τὴν καλιὰν ἑαυτῆς ἔπηξεν ἐν τῇ βάτῳ ἐπὶ τοῦ κρημνοῦ.

ἐξέπτη δ' ὡς συλλέξουσα τροφὴν τοῖς νεοττοῖς. δράκων τις δ' ἐκ τρώγλης συρεὶς ἀφίκετο εἰς τὴν καλιάν. ἡ δὲ χελιδών, εὐρίσκουσα τὸν δράκοντα ἔχοντα ἐν νῷ τοὺς νεοττοὺς καταφαγεῖν, ἐταράχθη. ἐκέκραξεν οὖν καὶ εἶπε «ὦ φίλε ὄφι, θανεῖν θέλω, τῶν τέκνων μὴ ζῶντων. φάγε οὖν με πρῶτον καὶ τοὺς σκώληκας οὓς ἔλαβον. ἔπειτα δὲ σὺ φαγῇ τοὺς ἄλλους καὶ χορτάσεις.» ὁ δέ δράκων, μάλιστα πεινῶν, ὁμολογεῖ τούτοις. τῇ δὲ χελιδόνι ἐπλησίασεν ὁ δράκων.

ἐν δὲ τῷ μεταξὺ, ἡ χελιδὼν ἔστη πρὸς τὸ τοῦ κρημνοῦ χεῖλος. ὅτε οὖν ἀνέστη ὁ δράκων ἵνα ἁρπάζῃ τὴν χελιδόνα, ἡ μὲν ἐξέπτη σῶς, ὁ δ' ἀπὸ τοῦ κρημνοῦ πίπτων ἀπέθανεν.

And I'll add my own epimythium:

ὁ μῦθος πρὸς τοὺς πλεονέκτας εὔκαιρός ἐστιν.

.


Nice!!
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:02 pm

Here’s something else I just composed:

διδάσκαλος τις ἐν σαπρῷ νοΐ ἀνεγίνωσκεν τὰς γραφάς . ἡμέρα τῇ ἡμέρᾳ οὕτως ἐποίησεν ὥστε ἀκατάστατος τό πνεῦμα αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο. Νυνὶ δὲ, ὅσον αὐταῖς ἀνεγίνωσκεν, τὸ πνεῦμα αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο ἀσθενὲς μᾶλλον περισσότερον .

Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐν τῷ ἀναγνῶναι αὐτὸν , κρατήσας ὁ πατήρ αὐτοῦ τὸ βιβλίον τὸ ἅγιον ἀπό τῶν χειρῶν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔβαλεν αὐτό ἐν τῷ πῦρ. ὁ διδάσκαλος ἐθαύμασεν καὶ εἶπεν, “πάτερ, οὐ ἁγιάζεις τὸ βιβλίον ?” ἀπεκρίθη ὁ πατήρ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἄφρων, ὅτι ἁγιάζω τὸ βιβλίον ὅτι ἐξειλάμην σε ἀπ αὐτό. επήρες τὴν ψυχὴν σου ἐν αὐτῷ.”

A certain Instructor used to read the scriptures improperly ( i.e. he used to engage in biblical eisegesis). Day after day he did this so that his spirit became unstable. As a matter of fact, the more he read them (the scriptures), the more abundantly ill his spirit became .

It so happened that one day as he was reading , his father grabbed the holy bible from his hands and threw it into the fireplace. The teacher of the law was stunned and said , “Father, don’t you respect the bible ? “ The father answered and said unto him, “Fool, it is precisely because I respect the bible that I rescued you from it . You were burning your soul with/in it.”
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:13 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
To use Krasden and Chomsky's term here for a moment, we might say that using the faculty of mind to short-cut the language acquisition process has some short-term benefits for communication and comprehension, but for long-term mastery, one needs to continue with acquisition to inform and simplify composition.


αὐτός γε σύμφημι...

Or to paraphrase in English "You are preaching to the choir."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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