Textkit Logo

Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Are you learning Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament and most other post-classical Greek texts? Whatever your level, use this forum to discuss all things Koine, Biblical or otherwise, including grammar, textbook talk, difficult passages, and more.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:59 am

Μᾶρκος ὁ φῶς φέρων τῷ Στεφάνῳ τῷ μακρόθεν βάλλοντι χαίρειν πλεῖστα ἐν Ἰησοῦ.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ὁ Angoorie αἰγιαλὸς εὑρίσκεται ἐγγὺς τῆς παιδικῆς οἰκίας μου.Image
τί βλέπετε, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν τῷ φωτογραφήματι;

καλὰ ὁρῶ καὶ πολλά. πρὸ πάντων, ὕδωρ βλέπω. εἰ δὲ θάλασσαν ἢ λίμνην τεθέαμαι, σὺ μέν, φίλε ἑκηβόλε οἶδας, ἐγὼ δ' οὔκ. ἐν δὲ τῇ εἰκόνι χλωρὰ πεφανέρωταί μοι, καὶ λίθοι καὶ δένδρον τι φύλλων γυμνόν. τὴν δ' ἄμμον δείκνυσι τὸ φωτογράφημα. καὶ λίαν μικρὸν ὄρος ἀθρῶ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο μόνον βουνὸν καλῶ. (καλῶς τοῦτο ὀνομάζω?) χαίρω δὲ βλέπων τὸν οὐρανὸν κύανον ὄντα.

ἀνθρώπους οὐκ ὁρῶ οὐδὲ πλοῖα.

τὸν Θεόν, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν τῇ φωτογραφῇ βλέπω ἔγωγε. πάντα γὰρ ἃ θεωρῶ οὗτος ἐποίησεν.

τί δέ βλέπουσιν οἱ ἄλλοι φίλοι?
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The child is the father of the man. (W.W., 1802)

the Beach Boys wrote:(Child child, child, the child)
Father of the man
(Father of the man, father of the man)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPz_PgFwpRU

ἃ ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, ταῦτα τελεῖ σε.

ἐν ἀρχῇ τετέλεσται ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

ποῦ ἄρχομεν, ἐκεῖ τελοῦμεν.

ὑπο τοῦ παιδὸς παιδεύεται ὁ γέρων.

νήπιος ὤν, σόφος γέγονα.

παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν (Ἡσαίας 9:1). καὶ χωρὶς τούτου τοῦ παιδίου, οὐκ ἐγένετο ἓν ὃ γέγονεν (πρβλ. Ἰανν. 1:3) οὐδὲ σύγε.

νηπίαζε δή, ὦ γέρον, πᾶσιν!
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:10 pm

Προσέχετε δὲ ἀπὸ τῶν ψευδοπροφητῶν, οἵτινες ἔρχονται πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν ἐνδύμασιν προβάτων, ἔσωθεν δέ εἰσιν λύκοι ἅρπαγες.

Καθίζοντες οἱ φίλοι ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ εἶπε τὶς αὐτῶν τῷ Στεφάνῳ λέγων, διὰ τί, ὦ φίλτατε, ἐθέλει ἀρπάζειν πρόβατα ὁ λύκος; ἐπισταφεὶς [Μ. ἐπιστραφεὶς] δὲ ὁ Στέφανος εἶδον νήπιον μετὰ τῶν γονέων αὐτοῦ πεινῶντα καὶ κλαίοντα, καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς τῷ ἐρώτημα ἔχοντι εἴπεν, ὅτι διὸ [Μ. διότι], ὦ κράτιστε, πεινᾷ ὁ λύκος αὐτὸς καὶ τροφῆς δεομένη ἡ ἑαυτοῦ λυκαίνα ἐξήλασεν αὐτὸν ἐκ τοῦ φωλεοῦ ἵνα ἀγρεύσας πρόβατον τρέφῃ αὐτὴν καὶ τοὺς σκύμνους αὐτῶν.


[…] - τὰ τοῦ Μιχαὴλ διωρθώματα
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:13 pm

John 21:10 (μἐρος) wrote: Ἐνέγκατε ἀπὸ τῶν ὀψαρίων ὧν ἐπιάσατε νῦν.

διαταχθέντος τοῦ Κυρίου, ἀπετέλησεν ὁ Πέτρος. οἱ μὲν νεαλεὶς ἰχθύες οἱ ἐν τῷ δικτύῳ ἀναπηδήσαντες κατὰ φῦσιν ὥρμησαν πρὸς τὴν θάλασσαν. ὁ δὲ μαθητὴς ἐκεῖνος ἀφηβηκώς ἦν ἐρρωμένως εἵλκυσεν πρὸς τὸν Κύριον τὰ ὀψάρια. ἐκλεγόμενος ὁ ἀλιεὺς ἔνια ὀψάρια ἐκ τῆς ἄγρας, ἐκράτησεν αὐτῶν τὰ οὖρα ἵνα μὴ δάκνωσιν αὐτοῦ τοὺς δακτύλους. ὁ δὲ τεμών τὰ ὕπτια μέρη ἀπὸ τοῦ πρωκτοῦ πρὸς τὸ στέρνον ἐξέπλνεν τὰ ἔντερα ἐκ τῶν κοιλίων αὐτῶν. ὀβελίσκοις δὲ ἀναπείρων διὰ τοῦ στόματος τὰ ὀψάρια ἔδωκεν αὐτὰ τῷ προστάξαντι Κυρίῳ.
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:46 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Προσέχετε δὲ ἀπὸ τῶν ψευδοπροφητῶν, οἵτινες ἔρχονται πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν ἐνδύμασιν προβάτων, ἔσωθεν δέ εἰσιν λύκοι ἅρπαγες.

Καθίζοντες οἱ φίλοι ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ εἶπε τὶς αὐτῶν τῷ Στεφάνῳ λέγων, διὰ τί, ὦ φίλτατε, ἐθέλει ἀρπάζειν πρόβατα ὁ λύκος; ἐπισταφεὶς δὲ ὁ Στέφανος εἶδον νήπιον μετὰ τῶν γονέων αὐτοῦ πεινῶντα καὶ κλαίοντα, καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς τῷ ἐρώτημα ἔχοντι εἴπεν, ὅτι διὸ, ὦ κράτιστε, πεινᾷ ὁ λύκος αὐτὸς καὶ τροφῆς δεομένη ἡ ἑαυτοῦ λυκαίνα ἐξήλασεν αὐτὸν ἐκ τοῦ φωλεοῦ ἵνα ἀρπάξας πρόβατον τρέφῃ αὐτὴν καὶ τοὺς σκύμνους αὐτῶν.

τὴν τοῦ λύκου φῦσιν, φίλτατε, καλῶς ἐξηγήσω σύγε. ὁ γὰρ λύκος μόνον ἵνα φάγῃ ἀποκτείνει. ὁ δ' ἄνθρωπος ἀποκτείνει διὰ τὸ ἁμαρτωλὸν εἶναι.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby mwh » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:25 pm

Markos, αμαρτωλος not –ον. (And φύσιν, short υ.)

εκηβ., επιστ⟨ρ⟩αφείς, ειδεν of course. Not διό (“which is why …”), but διότι would be fine.
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:59 am

mwh wrote:εκηβ., Not διό (“which is why …”), .

Mark 15:1 wrote:Καὶ εὐθέως ἐπὶ τὸ πρωῒ συμβούλιον ποιήσαντες οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς μετὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ γραμματέων, καὶ ὅλον τὸ συνέδριον, δήσαντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἀπήνεγκαν καὶ παρέδωκαν τῷ Πιλάτῳ.

Οἱ πάντες ἀπήνεγκαν αὐτὸν, διὸ διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.

(διαλύεται ἐκκλησία, συναγωγή ἢ συνέδριον.)
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby mwh » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:15 pm

διελύθη
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:01 pm

ὦ χαῖρε, φίλε ἑκηβόλε.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:(διαλύεται ἐκκλησία, συναγωγή ἢ συνέδριον.)

καλῶς εἶπας. ἡ δὲ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκκλησία οὐ διαλυθήσεται εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Οἱ πάντες ἀπήνεγκαν αὐτὸν, διὸ διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.

ὡς μάλιστα. καὶ διελύπησεν τὸ συνέδριον τὸν Ἰησοῦν.

ἴθι πολλὰ ἐν Ἰησοῦ χαίρων.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:01 pm

mwh wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.

διελύθη
καταλαμβάνω. πῶς ἀνέχεις, ὦ Μιχαήλ, ὑμᾶς τοὺς συγγραφεὶς; ἡ καμία φράσις ἡμῶν ἐνέχει συντακτικὰς παραβάσεις.
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:34 pm

καλῶς ἔγραψας κακῶς, φίλτατε. περὶ γὰρ τοῦ λυθ ἐνθυμοῦμαι:

ἑκηβόλος wrote:...διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.

Markos wrote:διελύπησεν τὸ συνέδριον τὸν Ἰησοῦν.

οὐκ ἐλύθρωσεν τὸ συνέδριον τὸν Ἰησοῦν. ὁ δ' Ἰησοῦς ἡμᾶς ἐλυθρώσατο.

λυθρόω = λυτρόω -- ἀπολύω τινά. Μέσ. ἐξαγοράζω. (Λ.Σ.Κ.)
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby mwh » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:46 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:πῶς ἀνέχεις, ὦ Μιχαήλ, ὑμᾶς τοὺς συγγραφεὶς; ἡ καμία φράσις ἡμῶν ἐνέχει συντακτικὰς παραβάσεις.

ἀλλ’ ὦ ἑκηβόλε σὺ φαίνει βουλόμενός τε καὶ δυνάμενος ἐπιδιδόναι ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον, διὸ ἐνίοτε διορθῶ (νυνὶ δ’ οὔ). ἐὰν μέντοι ἔτι πλείονα ποιεῖσθαι προκοπὴν βούλῃ κατὰ τὸ ἑλληνίζειν, δεήσει σε σπουδάζειν εἰς τὰ ὑπ’ αὐτῶν τῶν Ἑλλήνων γραφέντα μᾶλλον ἢ ὁμιλοῦντα τοῖς ἐνταῦθα ἠλιθίως παίζουσιν αὐτὸν συγγράφειν.
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:02 am

mwh wrote:ἠλιθίως παίζο[ντες]
Not building up a set of constraints together with the possibilities in a language can result in over-extended creativity. Presumably you have chosen ἠλιθίως for the nuance of "not suspecting that something is amiss" or in a "good" sense, " who doesn't know what they're missing ".

The lack of a style and usage manual of Greek is partly to blame there. An example is the recent εὐδία ἔχει discussion - how can one know what idiomatuc usage there mught be. Currently available resources to help with composition are quite inadequate, so even if those those who ἠλιθίως παίζο[ντες] "play without being aware that there are rules to be followed" came to the point of realisation that freedom has constraints, it would be difficult for them to find what the contraints are. One of the resources that seems to offer hope in regard to εὐδία ἔχει is sections 40-49 of ἔχω (intransitive uses) in the forthcoming Cambridge Greek Lexicon. Have a look at Emeritus Professor James Diggles short duscussion at about the two minute mark of this You tube video. The unreferenced paper version won't be so much use as the electronic version with links to perseus. If the electronic version allows one to isolate all the intransitive uses of ἔχω, and specifically those examples where it means "continues (to be)", then it coukd be easily seen whether there are examples in their corpus of 70 authours where it is used without an explicit or implied adverbial complement.

The other obvious problems in composition is rendering of the wide-ranging English modal system and things like "probably" and "room", that have so many different (non-analogous) way to be expressed. The preference to develop meaning analogously by function rather than form is also somewhat askew to the expectations of English speakers.

It is interesting to see how attempts at composition fall short of the ancient authours. The discrepancies are quite patterned.

[For the purposes of composition, the complete lack of any Greek at all in the definitions of the forthcoming dictionary will probably result in the improper collocation of Greek words that happen to have the same glosses in English. ]
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:20 am

mwh wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:πῶς ἀνέχεις, ὦ Μιχαήλ, ὑμᾶς τοὺς συγγραφεὶς; ἡ καμία φράσις ἡμῶν ἐνέχει συντακτικὰς παραβάσεις.

ἀλλ’ ὦ ἑκηβόλε σὺ φαίνει βουλόμενός τε καὶ δυνάμενος ἐπιδιδόναι ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον, διὸ ἐνίοτε διορθῶ (νυνὶ δ’ οὔ). ἐὰν μέντοι ἔτι πλείονα ποιεῖσθαι προκοπὴν βούλῃ κατὰ τὸ ἑλληνίζειν, δεήσει σε σπουδάζειν εἰς τὰ ὑπ’ αὐτῶν τῶν Ἑλλήνων γραφέντα μᾶλλον ἢ ὁμιλοῦντα τοῖς ἐνταῦθα ἠλιθίως παίζουσιν αὐτὸν συγγράφειν.


ἀληθῶς τε καὶ ὀρθῶς καὶ καλῶς διαλεχθέντα...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby Markos » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:56 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:...ἐκράτησεν αὐτῶν τὰ οὖρα ἵνα μὴ δάκνωσιν αὐτοῦ τοὺς δακτύλους.

οὕτως ὁ Κύριος κρατήσει τὴν τοῦ Διαβόλου οὐρὰν καὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν τούτου συντρίψει.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:29 am

Ἀνήκει, οἶμαι, τὰ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντά τε καὶ τὰ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλοῦντα εἰς τὸ βέλτιον. ἐννοεῖτε γὰρ ὦ φίλοι, τὰ σημερινὰ ἀναγνώσματά μου. τὸ πρῶτον μὲν τῆς τῶν ἀποστόλων πράξεως κεφάλαιον ἑκατὸν καὶ δέκατον τὸ περὶ τῆς τοῦ ἀγγέλου ἐπικουρίας τοῦ ἐκφυγεῖν ἐκ τοῦ δεσμοφυλακίου, ἐπεῖτα τοῦ Εὐριπίδου τὰ περὶ τοῦ Πολυφήμου καὶ Ὀδυσσέως συμπινόντων στίχους κ', καὶ ἐπὶ τέλος τοῦ Λόγγου τὸ περὶ τῆς τοῦ Δαφνίδος ἀποπλύνσεως καὶ τοῦ θεᾶσθαι τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ τὴν Χλόην κεφάλαιον. Παρὰ τούτοις δὲ ἀνέγνων τοῦ bedwere στίχον κολοβὸν καὶ ἁπλοῦν, τὸ <<Σήμερον μέντοι αἱ νεφέλαι εὔκρατοί εἰσιν. Ὁρῶ γὰρ καὶ τὸν οὐρανόν.>>. συνομιλῶν οὖν τοῖς φίλοις τοῖς γραφοῦσιν τινά βλάβην κατεβλάφθην; οὐ γὰρ τελεῖα τὰ συγγραφήματα ἐκείνων ἀλλὰ οὐκ ἔχει τὶ δυσνόητον ἢ δυσβάστακτον. πῶς αἱ νεφέλαι εὔκρατοί εἰσιν, οὐκ οἶδα, ἀλλὰ ἔδοκεί μοί τι καταφατικὸν εἶναι.
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby mwh » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:21 pm

There are basic everyday things you need to fix. E.g. in your first sentence here: position of τε (should directly follow τά), τὰ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντα ungrammatical, τὰ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλοῦντα meaningless, and more.
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm

ναὶ μὰ τὸν Δία. καλῶς ἐποίησας βοηθήσας μοι. νήφων γὰρ οὐ γράφω ὀρθῶς.

ἑκηβόλος wrote:τὰ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντά τε καὶ τὰ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλοῦντα

τά τε ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντα καὶ τὰ ὑπὸ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλούντων (ἢ τὰ ὑπὸ τῶν νῦν διαλεχθέντα), but neither of those are beautiful.
"I've a balm for bruised hearts, brother, sleep for aching eyes,"
Says the warm wind, the west wind, full of birds' cries.
(John Masefield)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Previous

Return to Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek