ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
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ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
If the ἄγειν was more than a verb of motion and had to be either "take (the/this) opportunity to go", or "make (this/the) opportunity to go", how would one decide between the two meanings.
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
I don't think that ἄγειν could mean either. However, look at καιρός A.III in the LSJ for some ideas:
To be letting an opportunity slip: καιρὸν παριέναι
To be seizing an opportunity: καιρὸν λαμβάνειν
I don't know if it would be expressed differently in Koine Greek.
To be letting an opportunity slip: καιρὸν παριέναι
To be seizing an opportunity: καιρὸν λαμβάνειν
I don't know if it would be expressed differently in Koine Greek.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
The NT has εὐκαιρίαν ζητεῖν, to seek an opportunity.jeidsath wrote:
I don't know if it would be expressed differently in Koine Greek.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
The verbs are often used transitively in contexts where time (sequences of events) is scheduled or arranged, such as official proceedings. Both transitively and intransitively there is often a context of opportunity (for an activity), or time constraint (on an activity).
Perhaps conversely, φέρειν perhaps doesn't connotate that relationship to time/events in the same way.
Perhaps conversely, φέρειν perhaps doesn't connotate that relationship to time/events in the same way.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
Can you quote some examples from Greek texts of what you're describing?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
Okay. Connotation by association or from context is an inexact undertaking, but here are a few:
The first of those maybe has the connotation of "got the chance to", while the second is "to arrange or make the chance to"
For παρεισάγειν, perhaps it is worth mentioning the contrast / play between the two words in 2 Peter:
There is an almost tangible urgency or time pressure in the ἄγωμεν statements:
"Leading a force to infiltrate (bypass the defensive strongholds of) the city walls", which can be compared withDiodorus Siculus, Library, 13.90.1 wrote:τὴν δύναμιν ἐντὸς τῶν τειχῶν παρεισαγαγὼν
"persuaded them to get both him (Tennes) and the king inside the city walls"Diodorus Siculus, Library, 16.45.3 wrote:εἶθ᾽ ὁ μὲν Τέννης προσελθὼν τοῖς ἐξ Αἰγύπτου μισθοφόροις ἔπεισεν αὐτοὺς ἐντὸς τῶν τειχῶν εἰσαγαγεῖν αὐτόν τε καὶ τὸν βασιλέα.
The first of those maybe has the connotation of "got the chance to", while the second is "to arrange or make the chance to"
For παρεισάγειν, perhaps it is worth mentioning the contrast / play between the two words in 2 Peter:
"who will (find a few opportunities to) introduce some of their own destructive opinions. Possibly in contrast to the earlier general exhirtation to2 Peter 2:1 wrote:ψευδοδιδάσκαλοι , οἵτινες παρεισάξουσιν αἱρέσεις ἀπωλείας
"(at all times) adding every type earnestness".2 Peter 1:5 wrote:σπουδὴν πᾶσαν παρεισενέγκαντες
There is an almost tangible urgency or time pressure in the ἄγωμεν statements:
or an opportunity to get things done, such as preaching as ordered:Matthew 26:46 (cf. Mark 14:42) wrote:Ἐγείρεσθε, ἄγωμεν. Ἰδού, ἤγγικεν ὁ παραδιδούς με.
Mark 1:38 wrote:Ἄγωμεν εἰς τὰς ἐχομένας κωμοπόλεις, ἵνα καὶ ἐκεῖ κηρύξω· εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ ἐξελήλυθα
"how the LORD (found a way to) get him out of the prison".Acts 12:17 wrote:διηγήσατο αὐτοῖς πῶς ὁ κύριος αὐτὸν ἐξήγαγεν ἐκ τῆς φυλακῆς.
"Alternating between (taking the opportunity of) going out for a drink, then returning back home to the pen".Longus 1.8.3 wrote:πότε ἐξάγειν ἐπὶ πότον, πότε ἀπάγειν ἐπὶ κοῖτον:
"(In a very short time and under the right circumstances) flowers came forth".Longus 3.12.2 wrote:ἄνθη ... ἐξῆγεν
"Cleomenes differed from the others that had been taken down into prison (for some length of time) in this way, "Polybius 5.38.7 wrote:τούτῳ διαφέρων τῶν ἄλλων τῶν ὑπηγμένων εἰς τὰς φυλακάς,
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
I'm afraid that I'd have to disagree.
Diodorus Siculus, Library, 13.90.1 does not have the connotation of "got the chance to." He led his troops into the city that morning because the defending troops had deserted the night before.
Diodorus Siculus, Library, 16.45.3 does not mean he persuaded them to make the chance for him and the king to enter, it means he persuaded them to lead he and the king inside (the plain meaning of εἰσαγαγεῖν).
2 Pe 2:1 Is not a statement about opportunity, but a statement of fact. They will do this. See the context.
Acts 12:17. He is not explaining how the Lord found a way to get him out (one presumes that the Lord didn't have to try that hard), but rather he explains how the Lord got him out.
And the interpretation put on the others does not seem to be motivated by context either.
Diodorus Siculus, Library, 13.90.1 does not have the connotation of "got the chance to." He led his troops into the city that morning because the defending troops had deserted the night before.
Diodorus Siculus, Library, 16.45.3 does not mean he persuaded them to make the chance for him and the king to enter, it means he persuaded them to lead he and the king inside (the plain meaning of εἰσαγαγεῖν).
2 Pe 2:1 Is not a statement about opportunity, but a statement of fact. They will do this. See the context.
Acts 12:17. He is not explaining how the Lord found a way to get him out (one presumes that the Lord didn't have to try that hard), but rather he explains how the Lord got him out.
And the interpretation put on the others does not seem to be motivated by context either.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
I have to agree with jeidsath, there doesn't seem to be much here. Plus, "found a way to X" is really just a sort of copula. Verbs active in both sense and grammar, of the type "Subject Conjugated-Verb", can be periphrased as "Subject found a way to infinitive-Verb" with no loss or gain of meaning.
Nam cum dico, Socrates est, hoc ipsum esse Socrati applico, et substantiam eius esse constituo. Sin vero dixero, Socrates philosophus est, philosophiam et Socratem secundum esse composui; vel si dicam, Socrates ambulat, huiusmodi est tanquam si dicam, Socrates ambulans est
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Re: ἄγειν - verbs take or make the opportunity?
If the troops had still been there, perhaps he wouldn't have had the chance to. A set of circumstances arose that gave him a chance that he took using an ἄγειν verb.jeidsath wrote:Diodorus Siculus, Library, 13.90.1 does not have the connotation of "got the chance to." He led his troops into the city that morning because the defending troops had deserted the night before.
Does "plain" here mean without an opportunity. I think that apart from a few legacy (fossilised) elements the βαίνειν family of verbs describe motion without any (narrative) time reference at all - of course motion itself takes time.Diodorus Siculus, Library, 16.45.3 does not mean he persuaded them to make the chance for him and the king to enter, it means he persuaded them to lead he and the king inside (the plain meaning of εἰσαγαγεῖν).
Yes. The tense suggests the authour believes that what he says will happen for sure. It is an anticipated fact.2 Pe 2:1 Is not a statement about opportunity, but a statement of fact. They will do this. See the context.
Facts need opportunities to be done. The smaller context is that they are present in the community, and the larger context is that their presence finds parallels with false prophets in earlier periods. Whether a prophesy is given in response to a specific request or event, or it is given during regular worship services, the opportunity for it happens in a small time frame. The parallel in the context suggests that introduction of heresies will happen in short time frames like when false prophesies were given.
Getting him out happened within a limited, but real, time period. We can call a short and succinct time period in the story an opportunity. There is a beginning, some process or flow and an end, which may not be in words describing instantaneous or non time-specific happenings.Acts 12:17. He is not explaining how the Lord found a way to get him out (one presumes that the Lord didn't have to try that hard), but rather he explains how the Lord got him out.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;