An MLK Day treat

[Markos]

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

μὴ κατὰ χρῶτα, ἀλλὰ κατ' ἀρετήν.

I was unable to capture the alliteration or any of the poetry of the original. I'm not real happy with my attempt to capture the essence.

Alternate renderings into Greek of this or any other King quotes are welcome.

[mwh]

Markos' phrase captures the essence perfectly, I’d say.

The whole could run

τοῦτο φαντάζομαι, ὅτι τὰ ἐμὰ τέσσαρα παιδία ποτε ἐν τοιαύτῃ πολιτείᾳ βιώσονται ἐν οἵᾳ περ οὐ κατὰ τὴν χρῶτα διαγνωθήσονται ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν ἀρετήν.

No Gorgianic tricks, this is sober rhetoric, where ostentatious alliteration and poetic rhythms and figures would be out of place. It calls only for dignified rhythm, decorous word order, and avoidance of hiatus.

A dream still unfulfilled. And it's sad about his four little children.

[Markos]

...οὐ κατὰ τὴν χρῶτα διαγνωθήσονται ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν ἀρετήν.

Yes, adding the article works better here. I can't say why. I don't want to say why, but it fits both semantically and euphonically.

But I think χρώς is masculine.

[mwh]

But we can say why. αλλα κατ αρετην would give a displeasing succession of four short syllables (as well as a fourfold repetition of the same vowel). Objection might be made to the anapaestic close of κατα την αρετην, however.

Thanks for catching the typo.

“I have a dream” is difficult. τοῦτο φαντάζομαι almost gets it, I think, but it's post-classical (but hey, this is the koine forum). ἥδε ἡ εὐχή μου (i.e. ἥδ’ηὑχήμου, a good strong start)? ἐλπίδι ταύτῃ τρέφομαι? Despite the metaphor that seems a bit feeble.

[jeidsath]

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξεν μοι ἐν χώρᾳ ἐνοικησόντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία καὶ μὴ ὑπὸ τῶν γένων κριθήσεσθαι ἀλλὰ ψύχων.

[Markos]

But we can say why. αλλα κατ αρετην would give a displeasing succession of four short syllables (as well as a fourfold repetition of the same vowel). Objection might be made to the anapaestic close of κατα την αρετην, however.

I strongly believe that, more often than not, choices like these are driven by euphony, even in prose. But I'm not sure to what extent you can spell out these euphonic rules. But yes, a given Greek sentence can be arranged pleasingly or displeasingly.

I do think some semantics comes in play in this instance, though. The articles do not indicate, but subtly suggest, that King has in mind not only the general principle, but the actual flesh and blood instance of his children, their color, their virtue.

“I have a dream” is difficult. τοῦτο φαντάζομαι almost gets it, I think, but it's post-classical (but hey, this is the koine forum). ἥδε ἡ εὐχή μου (i.e. ἥδ’ηὑχήμου, a good strong start)? ἐλπίδι ταύτῃ τρέφομαι? Despite the metaphor that seems a bit feeble.

φαντάζομαι is indeed good; The middle here might be called a middle of internal visions. But the original has an active side too. Maybe therefore: τοῦτο ὑμῖν φαντάζοιμι, ὅτι...

Your ἥδε ἡ εὐχή μου reminds me a little of Paul:

Romans 10:1: (R.P.) Ἀδελφοί, ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις ἡ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν ὑπὲρ τοῦ Ἰσραήλ ἐστιν εἰς σωτηρίαν.

So, we might have

ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις ἡ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἐμῶν τέσσαρα παιδίων ἐστὶν ὅτι ποτε ἐν τοιαύτῃ πολιτείᾳ βιώσονται ἐν οἵᾳ περ οὐ κατὰ τὸν χρῶτα διαγνωθήσονται ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν ἀρετήν.

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξεν μοι ἐν χώρᾳ ἐνοικησόντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία καὶ μὴ ὑπὸ τῶν γένων κριθήσεσθαι ἀλλὰ ψύχων.

I like it. Asyndeton is always an option, but I think a connective can't hurt here. And note the accents.

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξεν δέ μοι ἐν χώρᾳ ἐνοικησόντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία καὶ μὴ ὑπὸ τῶν γενῶν κριθήσεσθαι ἀλλὰ ψυχῶν.

[mwh]

Markos,
I won't comment on your comments, but your proposed sentence is a distressing mongrel. And unlike “I have a dream,” “ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις ἡ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν” hardly lends itself to multiple repetition!

jeidsath,
A brave shot, and I’m powerless to prevent Markos liking it, but I’m afraid it means something like “I thought the four children, about to live in the countryside, would also be judged not by the races but by souls.”
He doesn’t really want souls to do the judging, any more than he wants the γενη to. (υπο makes them the agents.)
You could make it workable, though. You could try e.g. ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέ μοι ιδεῖν τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ἐνοικοῦντα εν τη πατριδι και μη κατα το γενος κρινομενα αλλα κατα το ηθος.

[jeidsath]

Hmm. I'll try to steal better.

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν χώρᾳ ἐνοικόντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον ταῖς ψύχαις ἑαυτὸν ἤ ταῖς γένεσσιν.

I haven't added Markos' "δέ" because it's not in the models that I'm using: Xen. 3.1.11 (and now for the revision Xen. Cyr 3.3.19). But it could well need it.

EDIT: Sorry, mwh, I just saw your revision suggestion after posting this.

[mwh]

A clear case for asyndeton.

EDIT. Sorry in turn Joel. My suggested revision was added as an afterthought after posting (as must have been obvious to you), and I should have put have an EDIT in front of it.
Still various things amiss with your independent revision, but the datives are a big improvement.

[jeidsath]

@mwh I will fix a couple of the errors that I see in light of your revision:

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν χώρᾳ ἐνοικοῦντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ψυχᾷ ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τὸ γένος.

And to take your suggestion for a couple of nouns as well, and add "ᾗ":

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν τῇ πατρίδι ἐνοικοῦντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ᾗ κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τῷ γένει.

EDIT, also word order plus a καὶ. I don't really have a justification for this change:

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ἐν τῇ ἐνοικοῦντα πατρίδι καὶ ᾗ κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τῷ γένει.

[Markos]

ὄναρ εἶδον·

If you wanted to get Homeric

Iliad 2:80-81: εἰ μέν τις τὸν ὄνειρον Ἀχαιῶν ἄλλος ἔνισπε
ψεῦδός κεν φαῖμεν καὶ νοσφιζοίμεθα μᾶλλον:

you could go with τὸν ὄνειρον ἐννέπω· King not only had the dream but is relating it.

[mwh]

@mwh I will fix a couple of the errors that I see in light of your revision:

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν χώρᾳ ἐνοικοῦντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ψυχᾷ ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τὸ γένος.

And to take your suggestion for a couple of nouns as well, and add "ᾗ":

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν τῇ πατρίδι ἐνοικοῦντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ᾗ κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τῷ γένει.

EDIT, also word order plus a καὶ. I don't really have a justification for this change:

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ἐν τῇ ἐνοικοῦντα πατρίδι καὶ ᾗ κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τῷ γένει.

Getting there. And your μαλλον … η and the datives work just fine. But you don’t really have a construction here. εδοξεν needs an infinitive, which you no longer have once you add ᾗ, since that introduces a relative clause, which needs a finite verb.

And I'm afraid your edit is for the worse:
ἐν τῇ ἐνοικοῦντα πατρίδι is impossible word order: the participle has to stand outside of εν τη πατριδι.
And dump that καί! which is meant to be doing what?

Make ενοικουντα an infinitive (ενοικεῖν) and κριθησεσθαι an indicative (κριθήσονται) and you have a sentence.

But ἑαυτοῦ “his own” shd be plural, and better just αὐτῶν (“their”: no need for reflexive form) or absent.

That will then mean “It seemed to me that my four children were living in their country where they would be judged rather by their character than by their race.”

Which is not quite right but fairly close.

If you wanted to get Homeric

Iliad 2:80-81: εἰ μέν τις τὸν ὄνειρον Ἀχαιῶν ἄλλος ἔνισπε
ψεῦδός κεν φαῖμεν καὶ νοσφιζοίμεθα μᾶλλον:

you could go with τὸν ὄνειρον ἐννέπω· King not only had the dream but is relating it.

But (1) he doesn’t say he’s relating it, only that he has it, and (2) τὸν ὄνειρον ἐννέπω is neither prose nor verse.

I strongly believe that, more often than not, choices like these are driven by euphony, even in prose. But I'm not sure to what extent you can spell out these euphonic rules.

Belief is worthless without evidence. And our own subjective aesthetic criteria do not coincide with theirs.
We have various means of access to euphonic principles operative in ancient Greek (and Latin) prose: the texts themselves (esp. oratory); ancient treatises on the subject (incl. Herculaneum texts); and modern study of ancient prose rhythm and stylistics (esp. Blass’s Der antike Prosarhythmus). This is the evidence that can and should inform our sense of what sounds good and what doesn’t.

I strongly believe that you routinely and unwarrantably privilege “euphony” over “semantics” (a somewhat unreal opposition in any case). Of course there are euphonic factors in artistic prose (Kunstprosa). These largely concern rhythm and prosodic continuity, as I indicated. But they never trump semantics.

[jeidsath]

@mwh -- Following your advice,

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν τῇ πατρίδι ἐνοικοῦντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ᾗ κριθήσεσθαι μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἑαυτοῦ ἤ τῷ γένει.

becomes

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν τῇ πατρίδι ἐνοικεῖν τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου ᾗ κριθήσονται μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἤ τῷ γένει.

Thanks for all the help. However, despite the fact that I've changed King's quote from metaphor "I have a dream" to statement "I dreamt," I'd still like to capture the "one day" in his quote. So

ὄναρ εἶδον· ἔδοξέν μοι ἐν τῇ πατρίδι ἐνοικοῦντα τὰ τέσσαρα παιδία μου μέλλειν ᾗ κριθήσονται μᾶλλον τῇ ἤθει ἤ τῷ γένει.

I notice that my accidence has gotten far better for the past few weeks. However this exercise makes me think that it might finally be time to study the Syntax section in Smyth.

[mwh]

@jeidsath
The second of these is best. μελλειν takes infin. (usually future), so ενοικουντα could become ενοικήσειν, and μελλειν would come somewhere before it to make the make the construction clear. But it’s not really a suitable word for the context (“to be about to”). I think we’ve gone along this line about as far as we can. οναρ ειδον· εδοξεν μοι is a fine start (though that would be a literal dream, unlike MLK’s), but rather than an impersonal construction (“it seemed to me that my children”) Greek would actually be much more likely to use a personal one and make the children the subject, “my children seemed to me …,” εδοξαν μοι τα παιδια … (it’s a neuter plural subject, which might take a singular verb, but since they are specifically four children a plural would be better). You could then have a future infin., I suppose, but my instinct would be to use the present infin.: he seemed to see his kids living …. The dream-vision was of the future, but it was present in his imagination. “One day” will best be ποτε (usually of the past, “once upon a time”, but also of the future, “at some time”).

“in a nation where” is a little tricky. χωρα means a piece of land, or a territory, or the country as distinct from the city, and doesn’t well correspond to a “nation.” πατρις is one’s fatherland, and seems more acceptable (forgetting African roots!). I see I used πολιτεια, a polity or a civic constitution, or indeed a Republic. Not perfect, and one could simply say e.g. “among citizens who.” But more important, I thought this was definitely a case for correlatives: ἐν τοιαύτῃ πολιτείᾳ ἐν οἵᾳ, “in the sort of politeia in which …” Seems overdone in English but very natural in Greek, which loves correlatives, and giving I think precisely the requisite sense. What kind of nation will my kids get to live in? carries the weight of the sentence. If you’re using ενοικειν you don’t need the εν’s, just the plain dative, or the accusative, since ενοικειν is often used transitively. - But these are details.

As to syntax, yes you need to develop a better understanding of when infinitives are used and when finite forms, likewise participles. Reading Xenophon—or Plato, or anyone—making sure you understand just why each verb is used in that particular form, and paying attention to how each sentence hangs together in its basic syntactic structure, may be the best way to go. Smyth is good for reference purposes but perhaps not the best thing to use when you’re first studying syntax. He makes it all seem so very complicated (which is perhaps what I’ve done above, but the basic syntax is pretty straightforward).

Hope this helps.

[jeidsath]

Smyth is good for reference purposes but perhaps not the best thing to use when you’re first studying syntax.

The earlier parts have been very useful, and full of gems, but the syntax explanations less so. It's difficult to find out what is most important by reading straight through. And sometimes he's not even coherent. See the first sentence of 933 a. But I find the example sentences very useful. If you know of other resources for example sentences, I would be appreciative.

[mwh]

I can't help with other resources for example sentences, but yes Smyth is very useful indeed here. And they help make his explanations intelligible.

[Markos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADVhDRZ62hs

One man come in the name of love.
One man come and go.
One man come, he to justify.
One man to overthrow.

ἐν ἀγάπῃ ἦλθε.
ἐλθὼν δέ πρὸς θεὸν ἦλθε.
ὑμᾶς τοῦ δικαιοῦν ἦλθε.
αὐτοὺς δὲ καταστέφειν.

In the name of love.
What more, in the name of love?

τί ἄλλο ἐν ἀγάπῃ?
τίς δ' ἄλλος?

One man caught on a barbed wire fence.
One man he resist.
One man washed up on an empty beach.
One man betrayed with a kiss.

In the name of love.
What more in the name of love?
In the name of love.
What more in the name of love?

Early morning, April four.
Shot rings out in the Memphis sky.
Free at last, they took your life.
They could not take your pride.

In the name of love.
What more in the name of love?
In the name of love.
What more in the name of love?