Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

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jeidsath
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Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by jeidsath »

Ἦν τις γέρων οἰκῶν ἐν τῇ μονῇ τοῦ ἀββᾶ Εὐστοργίου, ὅντινα ὁ ἐν ἁγίοις ἡμῶν ὁ ἀρχιεπίσκοπος Ἱεροσολύμων ἠθέλησεν ποιῆσαι ἡγούμενον τοῦ μοναστηρίου. Ὁ δὲ οὐ κατεδέξατο, λέγων· Ἐν τῷ Σινᾶ ὄρει θέλω γενέσθαι εὐχῆς χάριν. Ὁ δὲ ἀρχιεπίσκοπος ἠνάγκαζεν αὐτὸν γενέσθαι, καὶ οὕτως ἀπελθεῖν. Οὐκ ἀνασχεθέντα δὲ αὐτοῦ τὸν γέροντα, ἀπέλυσεν συνταξάμενον, μετὰ τὴν ἐπάνοδον τὴν ἡγεμονίαν καταδέχεσθαι. Καὶ δὴ οὕτως ἀσπασάμενος τὸν ἀρχιεπίσκοπον, ἐξῆλθεν τὴν ὁδοιπορίαν ποιούμενος ἐπὶ τὸ Σίναιον ὄρος, λαβὼν τὸν ἑαυτοῦ μαθητήν. Καὶ διαβάντος τὸν Ἰορδάνην ποταμὸν, ὡς ἀπὸ σημείου ἑνὸς, ἤρξατο φρικιᾷν ὁ γέρων καὶ πυρέσσειν. Ὡς δὲ οὐκ ἐδύνατο περιπατῆσαι, εὗρον σπήλαιον μικρὸν, καὶ εἰσῆλθον ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸς τὸ ἀνεθῆναι τὸν γέροντα. Ὡς δὲ ἐπέμενε πυρέσσων καὶ μήτε κινηθῆναι σχεδὸν δυνάμενος (ἐποίησε γὰρ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ σπηλαίῳ), θεωρεῖ ὁ αὐτὸς γέρων καθ’ ὕπνους τινὰ λέγοντα αὐτῷ· Εἰπὲ, γέρων, ποῦ θέλεις ὑπάγειν; Λέγει δὲ τῷ φανέντι αὐτῷ· Εἰς τὸ Σινᾶ ὄρος. Λέγει αὐτῷ· Μὴ, παρακαλῶ, μὴ ἀπέλθῃς. Ὡς δὲ οὐκ ἔπεισε τὸν γέροντα, ἀνεχώρησε ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ. Ὁ δὲ πυρετὸς πλέον ἐπετίθετο τῷ γέροντι. Πάλιν δὲ τῇ ἐπιούσῃ νυκτὶ, ὁ αὐτὸς παρίσταται αὐτῷ, τῷ αὐτῷ σχήματι, λέγων· Τί θέλεις, καλόγηρε, κοπωθῆναι; ἄκουσόν μου, καὶ μηδαμοῦ ἀπέλθῃς. Ἔφη αὐτῷ ὁ γέρων· Αὐτὸς γὰρ τίς εἶ; Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὁ φανείς· Ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰωάννης ὁ Βαπτιστής· καὶ διὰ τοῦτό σοι λέγω, μηδαμοῦ ἀπέλθῃς· τὸ γὰρ σπήλαιον τὸ μικρὸν τοῦτο μεῖζον τοῦ Σινᾶ ὄρους ἐστίν. Πολλάκις γὰρ ἐν τούτῳ ὁ Κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰσῆλθεν ἐπισκεπτόμενός με. Δός μοι οὖν λόγον ὅτι ὧδε κατοικεῖς, κἀγώ σοι τὴν ὑγείαν παρέχω. Ὁ δὲ γέρων ἡδέως καταδεξάμενος συνέθετο μετὰ λόγου παραμένειν τῷ σπηλαίῳ. Παραχρῆμά τε ὑγιάνας διέμεινεν ἐν αὐτῷ μέχρι τῆς αὐτοῦ ζωῆς· ποιήσας τὸ σπήλαιον ἐκεῖνο ἐκκλησίαν· συναγαγὼν δὲ καὶ ἀδελφότητα. Ἔστιν δὲ ὁ τόπος ὁ ἐπιλεγόμενος Σάψας. Τούτου ἐξ εὐωνύμων προπαράκειται ὁ χείμαῤῥος Χωρὰθ, εἰς ὃν ἀπεστάλη Ἠλίας ὁ Θεσβίτης ἐν καιρῷ τῆς ἀβροχίας, ὁ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον τοῦ Ἰορδάνου.
1. Ἐν τῷ Σινᾶ ὄρει θέλω γενέσθαι εὐχῆς χάριν.

He wants to go to Mt. Sinai to pray, but I don’t really understand the construction of “γενέσθαι εὐχῆς χάριν.”

2. ὡς ἀπὸ σημείου ἑνὸς

I seem to find this all over the place in late Greek. It’s also in Thucydides 2.90.4, where Gregory Crane translates it as “at one signal.” Here it seems to means “instantly after”?

3. μήτε κινηθῆναι σχεδὸν δυνάμενος

Can he not move even a little, or can he only move a little?

4. Πολλάκις γὰρ ἐν τούτῳ ὁ Κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰσῆλθεν ἐπισκεπτόμενός με.

Is this referencing some non-canonical story? Perhaps Jesus visiting John during his imprisonment at this (presumably famous in Moschus’ time) location?

5. Ὁ δὲ γέρων ἡδέως καταδεξάμενος συνέθετο μετὰ λόγου παραμένειν τῷ σπηλαίῳ.

I know what this is trying to say, but I’m a little lost starting with μετὰ λόγου…

6. Παραχρῆμά τε ὑγιάνας διέμεινεν ἐν αὐτῷ μέχρι τῆς αὐτοῦ ζωῆς

He stayed in the cave the rest of his life? Not “his health stayed inside of him until the end of his life.”?

7. Ἠλίας ὁ Θεσβίτης

This seems to be the common term for Elijah. What is a Θεσβίτης?

8. ὁ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον τοῦ Ἰορδάνου

I can guess what this means, but the idiom is not clear to me here.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Shenoute
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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by Shenoute »

Thanks for sharing this text, here are some tentative answers. If you like this kind of literature, you may enjoy also the Apophtegmata Patrum (Sayings of the Egyptian desert Fathers).

1. χάριν can be understood as a preposition, "for the sake of".

2. σημείον can refer to a "mile". So maybe "ὡς ἀπὸ σημείου ἑνὸς" could mean something like "as he was one mile away (from the Jordan)"...

4. There is a tradition that, When Herodesordered the killing of all new-born children, Elisabeth took John to the desert and that they lived in a cave for some time. But I haven't found any mention that Jesus (whose family had fled in Egypt) visited him there.

6. Elias comes from the city of Thesbis, so he is often called the "Thesbite".

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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

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The Desert Fathers is on my list too, mostly due to this quotation:
Ἐρωτῶντός ποτε τοῦ ἀββᾶ Ἀρσενίου τινὰ γέροντα Αἰγύπτιον περὶ ἰδίων λογισμῶν, ἕτερος ἰδὼν αὐτὸν εἶπεν· Ἀββᾶ Ἀρσένιε, πῶς τοσαύτην παίδευσιν Ῥωμαϊκὴν καὶ Ἑλληνικὴν ἐπιστάμενος, τοῦτον τὸν ἀγροῖκον περὶ τῶν σῶν λογισμῶν ἐρωτᾷς; Ὁ δὲ εἴπε πρὸς αὐτόν· Τὴν μὲν Ῥωμαϊκὴν καὶ Ἑλληνικὴν ἐπίσταμαι παίδευσιν· τὸν δὲ ἀλφάβητον τοῦ ἀγροίκου τούτου οὔπω μεμάθηκα.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by mwh »

A few more tentative answers:
2. lit. “as at a single signal,” i.e. all of a sudden, at a stroke.
3. μήτε κινηθῆναι σχεδὸν δυνάμενος “scarcely able even to move” (μήτε for μηδέ)
4. Certainly non-canonical, and new to me. Originates in this vision?
Is Sapsas known? Since the location is so precisely identified, and became a church, there may still be local tradition?
5. He spoke his agreement, just as he’d been told to (δὸς λόγον); he gave his word.
6. Immediately restored to health, he stayed in the cave “up to his life” i.e. up to the end of his life.
8. I’m not sure. “facing the Jordan”? i.e. the wadi ran down to the river? Does it distinguish this chorath from another or others? It’s a generic term, and ὁ χείμαῤῥος Χωρὰθ is like “the River Rio,” the Greek translating the Hebrew word. Anything useful in a I Kings commentary?

EDIT. 7. Ἠλίας ὁ Θεσβίτης I Kings 17:1: from Tishbe/Thesbis in Gilead.
ὁ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον τοῦ Ἰορδάνου cf. I Kings 17:3, where RSV has “east of the Jordan.” I haven’t checked LXX. ἐπὶ πρόσωπον should mean "facing" or "in front of."
Last edited by mwh on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by jeidsath »

1Ki 17:3 Πορεύου ἐντεῦθεν κατὰ ἀνατολὰς καὶ κρύβηθι ἐν τῷ χειμάρρῳ Χορραθ τοῦ ἐπὶ προσώπου τοῦ Ιορδάνου·

https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=LX ... ions=VNGHU
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by mwh »

OK, so RSV is interpreting. I see KJV more literally has “before Jordan,” and Moschus is echoing the LXX text, as you'd expect. If Elijah went eastward from Samaria, a wadi east of the river (as RSV) would be on the opposite side. So is that what επι προσωπον/ου means? "Facing the Jordan" as seen from the west, i.e. on the east bank? And is that what KJV means by "before Jordan"? And what if anything is known of the whereabouts of Sapsas?

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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by Shenoute »

Some links to articles about the location of Sapsas :
Hermit caves in Bethany

Elijah's Hill

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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by jeidsath »

If the John the Baptist cult (that surely seems to have been a big deal in Gospel times, perhaps bigger than they record, for the authors betray some anxiety about it), existed in the area, it could well have had a presence there for a long enough time to have been absorbed into the local monastic Christianity of later centuries.

Story 2:
Ἄλλος γέρων ἦν ἐν αὐτῷ τῷ τόπῳ τοῦ Σάψας, καὶ εἰς τοσαύτην ἤλασεν ἀρετὴν, ὥστε τοὺς λέοντας ἐρχομένους ἐν τῷ σπηλαίῳ αὐτοῦ, ὑποδέχεσθαι αὐτὸν, καὶ ἐν τῷ κόλπῳ αὐτοῦ παραβάλλειν αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὕτως πλήρης ἦν τῆς θείας χάριτος τοῦ Θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος.
1. καὶ ἐν τῷ κόλπῳ

The chest or “bosom” seems to be a bigger metaphorical deal in Greek than in English. I recall that “spitting three times into the bosom” is a remedy for the evil eye, which sounds strange to me.

Story 3:
Παρεβάλομεν ἐν τῇ λαύρᾳ τοῦ ἐν ἁγίοις Πατρὸς ἡμῶν Σάβα, τῷ Ἀθανασίῳ. Διηγήσατο ἡμῖν ὁ γέρων, λέγων, ὅτι Ὡς ἡμῖν εἰς τὸ κοινόβιον τοῦ Πενθουκλᾶ, ἦν τις Κόνων, ὀνόματι Κίλιξ, πρεσβύτερος εἰς τὸ βάπτισμα· καὶ ὡς μέγαν ὄντα τὸν γέροντα, ἔταξαν αὐτὸν ποιεῖν τὰ βαπτίσματα, αὐτὸς δὲ ἔχριεν, καὶ ἐβάπτιζεν τοὺς ἐπὶ τοῦτο παραγενομένους. Καθ’ ὅτι οὖν ἔχριεν γυναῖκα, ἐσκανδαλίζετο, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ἤθελεν ἀναχωρῆσαι τοῦ κοινοβίου· καθ’ ὅτι οὖν ἔσχεν λογισμὸν τοῦ ἀναχωρῆσαι, ἐφίσταται αὐτῷ ὁ ἅγιος Ἰωάννης, λέγων· Καρτέρησον, καὶ κουφίσω σε τοῦ πολέμου. Ἐν μιᾷ οὖν ἦλθεν κόρη Πέρσισα, ἐπὶ τὸ βαπτισθῆναι· ἦν δὲ εὐειδὴς πάνυ ὡραία, ὥστε μὴ δυνηθῆναι τὸν πρεσβύτερον αὐτὴν χρῖσαι τῷ ἁγίῳ ἐλαίῳ· καὶ ποιησάσης αὐτῆς δύο ἡμέρας, ἤκουσεν ἀρχιεπίσκοπος Πέτρος, ἐξεπλάγη ἐπὶ τῷ γεγονότι, καὶ ἠθέλησεν ἀφορίσαι διάκονον γυναῖκα ἐπὶ τῷ αὐτῷ. Ἀλλὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐποίησεν, διὰ τὸ μὴ ἐπιδέχεσθαι τὸν τρόπον. Ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος Κόνων, λαβὼν τὸ μηλωτάριον αὐτοῦ, ἀνεχώρησεν, εἰπὼν ὅτι Οὐ μενῶ εἰς τὸν τόπον τοῦτον. Ὡς οὖν ἐξῆλθεν ἐπὶ τοὺς βουνοὺς, ἰδοὺ ἀπαντᾷ αὐτῷ ὁ ἅγιος Ἰωάννης ὁ Βαπτιστὴς, καὶ πραείᾳ τῇ φωνῇ λέγει αὐτῷ· Ὑπόστρεψον εἰς τὸ μοναστήριόν σου, καὶ κουφίσω σε τοῦ πολέμου· Ὁ ἀββᾶς Κόνων λέγει αὐτῷ μετ’ ὀργῆς· Πίστευε, οὐκ ἐπιστρέψω, πολλάκις γὰρ συνέθου μοι, καὶ οὐδὲν ἐποίησας. Κρατήσας οὖν αὐτὸν ὁ ἅγιος Ἰωάννης ἐκάθισεν αὐτὸν ἐφ’ ἕνα τῶν βουνῶν, καὶ ἀνασκέψας τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτοῦ τῷ σημείῳ τοῦ σταυροῦ τρίτον κατεσφράγισεν αὐτὸν ὑποκάτω τοῦ ὀμφαλοῦ, καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Πίστευέ μοι, πρεσβύτερε Κόνων· ἤθελόν σοι ἔχειν μισθὸν ἐκ τοῦ πολέμου, ἐπειδὰν δὲ οὐ θέλεις, ἐκούφισα τὸν πόλεμον, καὶ μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχεις τοῦ πράγματος τούτου. Καὶ ὑποστρέψας εἰς τὸ κοινόβιον τοῦ βαπτίσματος ὁ πρεσβύτερος Κόνων, τῇ ἐπαύριον χρίσας ἐβάπτισεν τὴν Πέρσισαν, μὴ θεωρήσας ὅλως ὅτι γυνὴ τὴν φύσιν ὑπῆρχεν· ἐποίησεν δὲ καὶ ἄλλα δώδεκα ἔτη χρίων, καὶ βαπτίζων, μήτε κινηθεὶς τὸ σῶμα, μήτε γυναῖκα θεωρήσας ἔτι κατὰ τὴν φύσιν. Καὶ οὕτως ἐτελειώθη.
1. Παρεβάλομεν ἐν τῇ λαύρᾳ τοῦ ἐν ἁγίοις Πατρὸς ἡμῶν Σάβα, τῷ Ἀθανασίῳ.

I don’t get it. “We threw in the alley…”

2. χρῖσαι τῷ ἁγίῳ ἐλαίῳ

I assume that this is a very well known ceremony of Orthodox Christianity? [See 6.]

3. καὶ ἠθέλησεν ἀφορίσαι διάκονον γυναῖκα ἐπὶ τῷ αὐτῷ. Ἀλλὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐποίησεν, διὰ τὸ μὴ ἐπιδέχεσθαι τὸν τρόπον.

A female deacon! But they are not allowed to do the anointment? Or perhaps not visit the monastery because τὸ κοινόβιον is all men? Or can only the πρεσβύτερος εἰς τὸ βάπτισμα do it?

4. λαβὼν τὸ μηλωτάριον αὐτοῦ

A glossary of later and Byzantine Greek gives μηλωτάριον = μηλωτή. “Sheepskin”? Is this his sleeping pad?

5. ἤθελόν σοι ἔχειν μισθὸν ἐκ τοῦ πολέμου

That doesn’t sound much like Calvinism.

6. τῇ ἐπαύριον χρίσας ἐβάπτισεν τὴν Πέρσισαν

That answers my question 2.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by mwh »

@shenoute Thanks for the links. Perfect!

@jeidsath παραβαλλω w/ dat. meet, come across, encounter

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Re: Pratum spirituale (Leimon)

Post by Shenoute »

Hi,
jeidsath wrote:1. Παρεβάλομεν ἐν τῇ λαύρᾳ τοῦ ἐν ἁγίοις Πατρὸς ἡμῶν Σάβα, τῷ Ἀθανασίῳ.

I don’t get it. “We threw in the alley…”
I think "laura" here is a "monastery".
jeidsath wrote:3. καὶ ἠθέλησεν ἀφορίσαι διάκονον γυναῖκα ἐπὶ τῷ αὐτῷ. Ἀλλὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐποίησεν, διὰ τὸ μὴ ἐπιδέχεσθαι τὸν τρόπον.

A female deacon! But they are not allowed to do the anointment? Or perhaps not visit the monastery because τὸ κοινόβιον is all men? Or can only the πρεσβύτερος εἰς τὸ βάπτισμα do it?
A deaconess could (and indeed should) anoint women during baptism, at least that was the custom of some Churches at some point. If so, could διὰ τὸ μὴ ἐπιδέχεσθαι τὸν τρόπον mean that the archbishop did not send a diaconess because he did not want to admit Conon's attitude?
jeidsath wrote:4. λαβὼν τὸ μηλωτάριον αὐτοῦ

A glossary of later and Byzantine Greek gives μηλωτάριον = μηλωτή. “Sheepskin”? Is this his sleeping pad?
Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon (p. 868) has the word translated as "sheepskin cloak worn by monks".

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