It is rather unwise to declare / dictate that a thread about whether or not the personality of holy spirit can be shown through ad sensum construction has nothing to do with Greek grammar.jeidsath wrote:Isaac, I think you're being too hard on yourself with that last post. You weren't really being a deceiver in my opinion, and I reject you calling yourself one. That is far too harsh to say about anyone here, even yourself. We're all just learners here, and I (and others) agree with a fair amount of what you have to say, if not the presentation or the choice of forum. I personally agree with you that there is a case to be made that Christian writings between 50 A.D. - 100 A.D. show little if any consciousness of a high pneumatology. The Paraclete too is a great big and interesting discussion. But for another forum.
ναί. πῦρ γὰρ ἦλθε βαλεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν ὁ χριστός . (Luke 12:49)Keep in mind always that the bible is a dangerous fire. If we handle it inappropriately, we shall be burnt
Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Hi Jeidseth,
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I object to you or anyone calling you unwise, Isaac! Frankly I don't know where these posts of yours come from.
Meanwhile, let's get this discussion back to the grammar. Can you comment on Plato's Laches 180e? The part about τὰ μειράκια πρὸς ἀλλήλους διαλεγόμενοι?
Meanwhile, let's get this discussion back to the grammar. Can you comment on Plato's Laches 180e? The part about τὰ μειράκια πρὸς ἀλλήλους διαλεγόμενοι?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
This is a good example of constructio ad sensum τὰ μειράκια πρὸς ἀλλήλους διαλεγόμενοι (the lads discussing with one another ) and relevant to this thread. Notice τὰ μειράκια is neuter plural but the participle is masculine plural διαλεγόμενοι, because persons are in view. Also ἀλλήλους instead of ἄλληλᾰ.jeidsath wrote:I object to you or anyone calling you unwise, Isaac! Frankly I don't know where these posts of yours come from.
Meanwhile, let's get this discussion back to the grammar. Can you comment on Plato's Laches 180e? The part about τὰ μειράκια πρὸς ἀλλήλους διαλεγόμενοι?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
See the footnote 73 in the chapter on the dative of agent, in my book, it is on the page 189. There Wallace speaks about Gal. 5:16, πνεύματι περιπατεῖτε; he says it is not an example of the dative of agent, so the fact htat the Holy Spirit is a person wasn't completely realized in the apostolic period. In the footnote, he claims that all the New Testament cases of using the phrase ὑπὸ πνεύματος, which evidently expresses the personality of the spirit, are al in later books (Mt. 4:1; Lk. 2:26; Ac. 13:4; 16:6; 2Pt. 1:21).Isaac Newton wrote:I have this book(in English) on my shelf. Could you cite the pg. , section and sub section ? I could check the English.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Hi Vladimir,
These are to be found in pages 165 and 166 in the English version of the book. The point regarding the grammatical basis for holy spirit's supposed personality on account of ὑπὸ + genitive doesn't seem to me to be Wallace's personal conviction, but he seems to be speaking on behalf of those who argue for this perspective when he makes the footnote assertion in 74, hence his use of a caveat like "apparently". -- "It is interesting that all of the NT examples of ὑπὸ + πνεύματος, indicating as they apparently do the personality of the Spirit, occur in later books (cf. Matt. 4:1; Luke 2:26;Acts 13:4;16:6;2 Peter 1:21)."
More importantly he does not repeat this in his "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit" where he unconditionally concedes that there is no evidence for holy spirit's personality through the route of Greek grammar.
FWIW, I agree with you that this is a weak (even foolish) argument. In Greek, ὑπὸ + genitive does not invariably spell "ultimate personal agency" for there is no such magic "rule" ; else we would be in the unenviable position of having to defend the notion that θάνατος in Acts 2:24 is a "person," for instance. These sorts of "arguments" (which amount to an abuse of Greek grammar) are born out of sheer desperation, if anything IMHO.
Thanks for the citations.Vladimir wrote:See the footnote 73 in the chapter on the dative of agent, in my book, it is on the page 189. There Wallace speaks about Gal. 5:16, πνεύματι περιπατεῖτε; he says it is not an example of the dative of agent, so the fact htat the Holy Spirit is a person wasn't completely realized in the apostolic period. In the footnote, he claims that all the New Testament cases of using the phrase ὑπὸ πνεύματος, which evidently expresses the personality of the spirit, are al in later books (Mt. 4:1; Lk. 2:26; Ac. 13:4; 16:6; 2Pt. 1:21).Isaac Newton wrote:I have this book(in English) on my shelf. Could you cite the pg. , section and sub section ? I could check the English.
These are to be found in pages 165 and 166 in the English version of the book. The point regarding the grammatical basis for holy spirit's supposed personality on account of ὑπὸ + genitive doesn't seem to me to be Wallace's personal conviction, but he seems to be speaking on behalf of those who argue for this perspective when he makes the footnote assertion in 74, hence his use of a caveat like "apparently". -- "It is interesting that all of the NT examples of ὑπὸ + πνεύματος, indicating as they apparently do the personality of the Spirit, occur in later books (cf. Matt. 4:1; Luke 2:26;Acts 13:4;16:6;2 Peter 1:21)."
More importantly he does not repeat this in his "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit" where he unconditionally concedes that there is no evidence for holy spirit's personality through the route of Greek grammar.
FWIW, I agree with you that this is a weak (even foolish) argument. In Greek, ὑπὸ + genitive does not invariably spell "ultimate personal agency" for there is no such magic "rule" ; else we would be in the unenviable position of having to defend the notion that θάνατος in Acts 2:24 is a "person," for instance. These sorts of "arguments" (which amount to an abuse of Greek grammar) are born out of sheer desperation, if anything IMHO.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Mark 9:24-25 affords us another good example:
And in the very next verse, in 9:26 we have ad sensum construction with reference to the evil spirit;
And finally, we see the masculine νεκρὸς instead of the neuter νεκρὸν because the child is a personality, an individual, a "person.".
Notice instead of αὐτό we have αὐτόν.εὐθὺς κράξας ὁ πατὴρ τοῦ παιδίου ἔλεγεν Πιστεύω· βοήθει μου τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ.ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἐπισυντρέχει ὄχλος, ἐπετίμησεν τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ λέγων αὐτῷ Τὸ ἄλαλον καὶ κωφὸν πνεῦμα, ἐγὼ ἐπιτάσσω σοι, ἔξελθε ἐξ αὐτοῦ καὶ μηκέτι εἰσέλθῃς εἰς αὐτόν.
And in the very next verse, in 9:26 we have ad sensum construction with reference to the evil spirit;
Notice the masculine form of the participle κράξας instead of the neuter κράξαν is used, and also the masculine σπαράξας instead of the neuter σπαράξαν because the author viewed this evil spirit as a personality....ἐπετίμησεν τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ λέγων αὐτῷ Τὸ ἄλαλον καὶ κωφὸν πνεῦμα, ἐγὼ ἐπιτάσσω σοι, ἔξελθε ἐξ αὐτοῦ καὶ μηκέτι εἰσέλθῃς εἰς αὐτόν. 26 καὶ κράξας καὶ πολλὰ σπαράξας ἐξῆλθεν· καὶ ἐγένετο ὡσεὶ νεκρὸς, ὥστε τοὺς πολλοὺς λέγειν ὅτι ἀπέθανεν.
And finally, we see the masculine νεκρὸς instead of the neuter νεκρὸν because the child is a personality, an individual, a "person.".
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I think that the next step that you'll have to take to make a convincing argument on this Isaac, is to demonstrate how the grammar of Christians changed over the next few hundred years as a higher pneumatology developed. How did people refer to τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον in the 2nd-3rd centuries? Had it changed, or was it the same?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Also, you're getting most of your current information from here, correct?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Yes.jeidsath wrote:Also, you're getting most of your current information from here, correct?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Good point.jeidsath wrote:I think that the next step that you'll have to take to make a convincing argument on this Isaac, is to demonstrate how the grammar of Christians changed over the next few hundred years as a higher pneumatology developed. How did people refer to τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον in the 2nd-3rd centuries? Had it changed, or was it the same?
It would be a fine idea to inspect the writings of the so-called "church fathers" (both the "early" and post Nicene ) to see if there was either a conscious or subconscious move by them to refer to τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον with masculine pronouns and modifiers. On the other hand there might have been a conscious effort by them to not do so, in order to keep consistent with the NT which doesn't do so. But these issues must be carefully investigated..
In this regard, I observed yesterday the following peculiarity concerning Mark 9:24-26 and the TR. Here the participles κράξας and σπαράξας have actually been tampered with and given neuter endings. Was this done to veil the fact that holy spirit was not similarly referred to with masculine participles in the NT, or to keep grammatical consistency with the gender of the evil spirit ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I think Wallace was wrong to ignore the examples of constructio ad sensum from the book of Revelation in his article ("Greek Grammar and the Personaity of the Holy Spirit.") . Following is a very pertinent one to the present discussion. I found it while reading through chapter 13 of this delightful book of prophesy:
Notice τὸ θηρίον (or the Beast) has neuter grammatical gender, yet the relative pronoun οὗ referring to it is masculine because it is a personality, an individual, even if not "human" by any objective criteria.
Rev. 13:12καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν τοῦ πρώτου θηρίου πᾶσαν ποιεῖ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ. καὶ ποιεῖ τὴν γῆν καὶ τοὺς ἐν αὐτῇ κατοικοῦντας ἵνα προσκυνήσουσιν τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον, οὗ ἐθεραπεύθη ἡ πληγὴ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ.
Notice τὸ θηρίον (or the Beast) has neuter grammatical gender, yet the relative pronoun οὗ referring to it is masculine because it is a personality, an individual, even if not "human" by any objective criteria.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
And what would τὸ πρῶτον and οὗ have been if they were neuter?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
jeidsath wrote:And what would τὸ πρῶτον and οὗ have been if they were neuter?
We know he's intending the genitive relative pronoun as masculine even though οὗ can be either (masculine or neuter) because of what comes two verses down the road within the same context:
Rev. 13:14καὶ πλανᾷ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς διὰ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου, λέγων τοῖς κατοικοῦσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ποιῆσαι εἰκόνα τῷ θηρίῳ, ὃς ἔχει τὴν πληγὴν τῆς μαχαίρης καὶ ἔζησεν.
τῷ θηρίῳ is neuter, yet the nominative relative pronoun ὃς is masculine. We expect ὅ here.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
And "τὸ θηρίον ὃ εἶδον" a few verses up?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Which verse exactly. And what about it ?jeidsath wrote:And "τὸ θηρίον ὃ εἶδον" a few verses up?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Look carefully, Ike! I have every confidence in you.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Could you -jeidsath wrote:Look carefully, Ike! I have every confidence in you.
(a) List the verse which is apparently only "a few verses up" , (b) explain exactly what you're trying to argue with it ?
I hate to say this, but you seem to be trolling
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Ah, but in Greek, the Trolls were:
οἱ μὲν δαίμονες ἁγνοὶ ἐπιχθόνιοι τελέθουσιν,
ἐσθλοί, ἀλεξίκακοι, φύλακες μερόπων ἀνθρώπων;
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I saw another instance of ad sensum construction at Rev. 13:14. Does anyone else perceive it ?
Notice the masculine form of the participle (λέγων) associated with the second beast (ἄλλο θηρίον ). We expect λέγον here don't we ? Now notice Acts 20:23 where the same is not done with reference to the holy spirit:καὶ πλανᾷ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς διὰ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου, λέγων τοῖς κατοικοῦσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ποιῆσαι εἰκόνα τῷ θηρίῳ, ὃς ἔχει τὴν πληγὴν τῆς μαχαίρης καὶ ἔζησεν.
Acts 20:23πλὴν ὅτι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον κατὰ πόλιν διαμαρτύρεταί μοι λέγον ὅτι δεσμὰ καὶ θλίψεις με μένουσιν·
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I was reading through the holy scriptures just now, and I found instances of constructio ad sensum associated with a spirit [evil] (spirits actually) which Wallace had overlooked in his "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit":
We expect πολλά and λέγοντα respectively don't we ? Incidentally at Luke 4:41 we do have λέγοντα instead of λέγοντες:
--
So we see that in the GNT evil spirits are sometimes referred to with masculine participles, adjectives and pronouns, because these are spirit beings. Yet this is never done with reference to holy spirit .IMHO this serves as insurmountable evidence that the NT did not consider holy spirit to be a "person" but rather the "force" or "power" of a living Being instead, namely that of the Father. We get a powerful inkling of this in the following Hebraic parallelism :
Mark 5:8 -12ἔλεγεν γὰρ αὐτῷ Ἔξελθε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἀκάθαρτον ἐκ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.καὶ ἐπηρώτα αὐτόν Τί ὄνομά σοι; καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ Λεγιὼν ὄνομά μοι, ὅτι πολλοί ἐσμεν.καὶ παρεκάλει αὐτὸν πολλὰ ἵνα μὴ αὐτὰ ἀποστείλῃ ἔξω τῆς χώρας.ἦν δὲ ἐκεῖ πρὸς τῷ ὄρει ἀγέλη χοίρων μεγάλη βοσκομένη·καὶ παρεκάλεσαν αὐτὸν λέγοντες Πέμψον ἡμᾶς εἰς τοὺς χοίρους, ἵνα εἰς αὐτοὺς εἰσέλθωμεν.
We expect πολλά and λέγοντα respectively don't we ? Incidentally at Luke 4:41 we do have λέγοντα instead of λέγοντες:
ἐξήρχετο δὲ καὶ δαιμόνια ἀπὸ πολλῶν, κραυγάζοντα καὶ λέγοντα ὅτι Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ. καὶ ἐπιτιμῶν οὐκ εἴα αὐτὰ λαλεῖν, ὅτι ᾔδεισαν τὸν Χριστὸν αὐτὸν εἶναι.
--
So we see that in the GNT evil spirits are sometimes referred to with masculine participles, adjectives and pronouns, because these are spirit beings. Yet this is never done with reference to holy spirit .IMHO this serves as insurmountable evidence that the NT did not consider holy spirit to be a "person" but rather the "force" or "power" of a living Being instead, namely that of the Father. We get a powerful inkling of this in the following Hebraic parallelism :
Luke 1:35καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ, καὶ δύναμις Ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι· διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται Υἱὸς Θεοῦ.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I don't think this verse could be an argument against the personality of the Holy Spirit, for Christ himself is called θεοῦ δύναμις καὶ θεοῦ σοφία in 1Cor. 1:24.Isaac Newton wrote:We get a powerful inkling of this in the following Hebraic parallelism :
Luke 1:35καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ, καὶ δύναμις Ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι· διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται Υἱὸς Θεοῦ.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Hi Vladimir,
I beg to differ because in 1 Cor. 1:24 we have the "is" of essential predication. In other words Χριστὸν is not appositional to θεοῦ δύναμις . Whereas when we're dealing with the Hebraic parallel, we're using the "is" of identity so that the two terms are synonyms in which the same sentiment is repeated in different but equivalent words, for example Ps. 15:5, Num. 23:7-10, Isa. 60: 1-3, etc., and Luke 1:35.Vladimir wrote:I don't think this verse could be an argument against the personality of the Holy Spirit, for Christ himself is called θεοῦ δύναμις καὶ θεοῦ σοφία in 1Cor. 1:24.Isaac Newton wrote:We get a powerful inkling of this in the following Hebraic parallelism :
Luke 1:35καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ, καὶ δύναμις Ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι· διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται Υἱὸς Θεοῦ.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I don't understand why. Of course here there is no parallelism like in the verse you have quoted from the Gospel according to Luke, but it really looks like an apposition rather than an enumeration.Isaac Newton wrote: I beg to differ because in 1 Cor. 1:24 we have the "is" of essential predication. In other words Χριστὸν is not appositional to θεοῦ δύναμις .
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Hi Vladimir,
What leads you to say this ? I'm not dogmatic on this score, btw.Vladimir wrote:I don't understand why. Of course here there is no parallelism like in the verse you have quoted from the Gospel according to Luke, but it really looks like an apposition rather than an enumeration.Isaac Newton wrote: I beg to differ because in 1 Cor. 1:24 we have the "is" of essential predication. In other words Χριστὸν is not appositional to θεοῦ δύναμις .
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I was filtering through chapter 12 of Revelation yesterday and chanced upon the following instance of constructio ad sensum :
The noun ἄρσεν is neuter but the relative pronoun referring to it is masculine. We expect ὅ here, don't we ?
verse 4καὶ ἔτεκεν υἱόν, ἄρσεν, ὃς μέλλει ποιμαίνειν πάντα τὰ ἔθνη ἐν ῥάβδῳ σιδηρᾷ· καὶ ἡρπάσθη τὸ τέκνον αὐτῆς πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν καὶ πρὸς τὸν θρόνον αὐτοῦ.
The noun ἄρσεν is neuter but the relative pronoun referring to it is masculine. We expect ὅ here, don't we ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
In his "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit" Wallace brings up Luke 9:39-40 in P45 (see P45 here http://www.csntm.org/manuscript/zoomify ... e=4#viewer).
Here the evil πνεῦμα is referred to with a masculine pronoun αὐτόν, instead of the neuter αὐτό found in our later manuscripts.
καὶ ἰδοὺ πνεῦμα λαμβάνει αὐτόν, καὶ ἐξέφνης κράζει, καὶ σπαράσσει αὐτὸν μετὰ ἀφροῦ καὶ μόλις ἀποχωρεῖ ἀπ' αὐτοῦ συντρῖβον αὐτόν·καὶ ἐδεήθην τῶν μαθητῶν σου ἵνα ἐκβάλωσιν αὐτόν, καὶ οὐκ ἠδυνήθησαν.
Here the evil πνεῦμα is referred to with a masculine pronoun αὐτόν, instead of the neuter αὐτό found in our later manuscripts.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Romans 2:14 is another good example --
The antecedent of οὗτοι is the neuter noun ἔθνη, so we really expect ταῦτα here don't we ? But since personalities are in view, grammatical gender is jettisoned for natural gender.
ὅταν γὰρ ἔθνη τὰ μὴ νόμον ἔχοντα φύσει τὰ τοῦ νόμου ποιῶσιν, οὗτοι νόμον μὴ ἔχοντες ἑαυτοῖς εἰσιν νόμος·
The antecedent of οὗτοι is the neuter noun ἔθνη, so we really expect ταῦτα here don't we ? But since personalities are in view, grammatical gender is jettisoned for natural gender.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
A very similar example to the last one I furnished is found in Matthew 28:19,
We expect αὐτά but we have αὐτοὺς because people are in view.πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος,
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Who expects αυτα? I don’t, and I’m surprised that you do.
John’s equation of the paraclete with the holy spirit shows how the agion pneuma could be conceived of in quasi-personal terms, similar to the various other pneumata, to which also masculines are applied.
But my own million dollar question, to put alongside your various ones, would be Why presume consistency of conceptualization among the various NT writers? Isn’t it clear that they don’t all think of it in quite the same way? Hardly surprising, given its history and its numinous nature. Isn’t John unique?
Forget trinitarianism for a moment, and think. The underlying premise is bizarre.
But if you do insist on attacking trinitarianism, there are better ways of doing so, given the theological contortions that had to be performed in order to establish the doctrine. If you’ll examine the historical record you’ll find plenty of ammunition.
But it’s absurd to imagine that anyone today can establish or disestablish any theological issue on the basis of Greek grammar. All that was done many centuries ago, by people who really knew Greek.
John’s equation of the paraclete with the holy spirit shows how the agion pneuma could be conceived of in quasi-personal terms, similar to the various other pneumata, to which also masculines are applied.
But my own million dollar question, to put alongside your various ones, would be Why presume consistency of conceptualization among the various NT writers? Isn’t it clear that they don’t all think of it in quite the same way? Hardly surprising, given its history and its numinous nature. Isn’t John unique?
Forget trinitarianism for a moment, and think. The underlying premise is bizarre.
But if you do insist on attacking trinitarianism, there are better ways of doing so, given the theological contortions that had to be performed in order to establish the doctrine. If you’ll examine the historical record you’ll find plenty of ammunition.
But it’s absurd to imagine that anyone today can establish or disestablish any theological issue on the basis of Greek grammar. All that was done many centuries ago, by people who really knew Greek.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Hi mwh,
How exactly ?
You may not, but generally speaking Koine pronouns match the grammatical gender of the nouns which they refer to. Are you not aware of this ?mwh wrote:Who expects αυτα? I don’t, and I’m surprised that you do.
.
John’s equation of the paraclete with the holy spirit shows how the agion pneuma could be conceived of in quasi-personal terms,
How exactly ?
What "masculines" exactly are you referring to ?similar to the various other pneumata, to which also masculines are applied.
What exactly do you mean by that ?But my own million dollar question, to put alongside your various ones, would be Why presume consistency of conceptualization among the various NT writers? Isn’t it clear that they don’t all think of it in quite the same way? Hardly surprising, given its history and its numinous nature. Isn’t John unique?
What exactly is that which is bizarre ?Forget trinitarianism for a moment, and think. The underlying premise is bizarre.
What ?But if you do insist on attacking trinitarianism, there are better ways of doing so, given the theological contortions that had to be performed in order to establish the doctrine. If you’ll examine the historical record you’ll find plenty of ammunition.
What exactly do you mean ?.... So many words, yet so little substance.But it’s absurd to imagine that anyone today can establish or disestablish any theological issue on the basis of Greek grammar. All that was done many centuries ago, by people who really knew Greek
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
If I might... "nice."jeidsath wrote:And what would τὸ πρῶτον and οὗ have been if they were neuter?
Why did this not get an answer? Does "Isaac Newton" (= "John Milton") not realize that οὗ is ambiguous in its gender and is in the genitive because of analogy and not because of a gender distinction?
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Morning Jaihare,
Hope this clarifies matters for you,
Here's Rev. 13:12-14,jaihare wrote:If I might... "nice."jeidsath wrote:And what would τὸ πρῶτον and οὗ have been if they were neuter?
Why did this not get an answer? Does "Isaac Newton" (= "John Milton") not realize that οὗ is ambiguous in its gender and is in the genitive because of analogy and not because of a gender distinction?
Although οὗ can be masculine or neuter (i.e. "ambiguous in gender" as you put it) in this context we know the author saw it as masculine because of ὃς in verse 14, both of these pronouns are referring to τὸ θηρίον and to τῷ θηρίῳ respectively, the first beast ( πρῶτος θηρίον). There is constructio ad sensum in verse 14 (τῷ θηρίῳ ...ὃς) and it must carry over to οὗ in verse 12 as well, although it is veiled to those who just look at this verse.That's why you must read more than one verse at a time when inspecting the Greek grammar of the bible.12καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν τοῦ πρώτου θηρίου πᾶσαν ποιεῖ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ. καὶ ποιεῖ τὴν γῆν καὶ τοὺς ἐν αὐτῇ κατοικοῦντας ἵνα προσκυνήσουσιν τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον, οὗ ἐθεραπεύθη ἡ πληγὴ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ. 13καὶ ποιεῖ σημεῖα μεγάλα, ἵνα καὶ πῦρ ποιῇ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβαίνειν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἐνώπιον τῶν ἀνθρώπων. 14καὶ πλανᾷ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς διὰ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου, λέγων τοῖς κατοικοῦσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ποιῆσαι εἰκόνα τῷ θηρίῳ, ὃς ἔχει τὴν πληγὴν τῆς μαχαίρης καὶ ἔζησεν.
Hope this clarifies matters for you,
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
(1) When you referred to it, you referred to θηρίον and οὗ, not to ὅς (which is gender-specific). If you were talking about ὅς, then I'd agree that this is constructio ad sensum.Isaac Newton wrote:Morning Jaihare,
Here's Rev. 13:12-14,jaihare wrote:If I might... "nice."jeidsath wrote:And what would τὸ πρῶτον and οὗ have been if they were neuter?
Why did this not get an answer? Does "Isaac Newton" (= "John Milton") not realize that οὗ is ambiguous in its gender and is in the genitive because of analogy and not because of a gender distinction?
Although οὗ can be masculine or neuter (i.e. "ambiguous in gender" as you put it) in this context we know the author saw it as masculine because of ὃς in verse 14, both of these pronouns are referring to τὸ θηρίον and to τῷ θηρίῳ respectively, the first beast ( πρῶτος θηρίον). There is constructio ad sensum in verse 14 (τῷ θηρίῳ ...ὃς) and it must carry over to οὗ in verse 12 as well, although it is veiled to those who just look at this verse.That's why you must read more than one verse at a time when inspecting the Greek grammar of the bible.12καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν τοῦ πρώτου θηρίου πᾶσαν ποιεῖ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ. καὶ ποιεῖ τὴν γῆν καὶ τοὺς ἐν αὐτῇ κατοικοῦντας ἵνα προσκυνήσουσιν τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον, οὗ ἐθεραπεύθη ἡ πληγὴ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ. 13καὶ ποιεῖ σημεῖα μεγάλα, ἵνα καὶ πῦρ ποιῇ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβαίνειν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἐνώπιον τῶν ἀνθρώπων. 14καὶ πλανᾷ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς διὰ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου, λέγων τοῖς κατοικοῦσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ποιῆσαι εἰκόνα τῷ θηρίῳ, ὃς ἔχει τὴν πληγὴν τῆς μαχαίρης καὶ ἔζησεν.
Hope this clarifies matters for you,
(2) As for your "πρῶτος θηρίον," such a construction surely doesn't exist! The text says τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον ("the first beast"). You could possibly have written τὸ πρῶτον θηρίον, but certainly πρῶτος θηρίον is nonsense.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
You really don't discern that the writer sees οὗ in Rev. 13:12 as masculine even though grammatically it is "ambiguous" ? Maybe, stop just breaking Erasmian codes,and actually read the Greek .jaihare wrote:
(1) When you referred to it, you referred to θηρίον and οὗ, not to ὅς (which is gender-specific). If you were talking about ὅς, then I'd agree that this is constructio ad sensum.
I agree. I meant to say πρῶτον θηρίον, as in τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον .(2) As for your "πρῶτος θηρίον," such a construction surely doesn't exist! The text says τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον ("the first beast"). You could possibly have written τὸ πρῶτον θηρίον, but certainly πρῶτος θηρίον is nonsense.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
And you would have grace for your mistakes? I didn't make a mistake, yet you say "stop breaking Erasmian codes and actually read the Greek." You make blatant grammatical mistakes when you attempt to construct the simplest of phrases in Greek, yet you expect me to just say, "Oh, that's OK. I realized it was just a slip." You're laughable. You know zilch about Greek - nothing - yet you think you have the right to correct everyone else. Good luck.Isaac Newton wrote:You really don't discern that the writer sees οὗ in Rev. 13:12 as masculine even though grammatically it is "ambiguous" ? Maybe, stop just breaking Erasmian codes,and actually read the Greek .jaihare wrote:
(1) When you referred to it, you referred to θηρίον and οὗ, not to ὅς (which is gender-specific). If you were talking about ὅς, then I'd agree that this is constructio ad sensum.
I agree. I meant to say πρῶτον θηρίον, as in τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον .(2) As for your "πρῶτος θηρίον," such a construction surely doesn't exist! The text says τὸ θηρίον τὸ πρῶτον ("the first beast"). You could possibly have written τὸ πρῶτον θηρίον, but certainly πρῶτος θηρίον is nonsense.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
Those who know only how to break Erasmian codes NEVER make mistakes with their set pieces,.. that's precisely the problem Jameson. You don't seem to know how to think in koine on the go, but rather access the various paradigms which you have memorized , and then by the sheer brute force of your will you dismantle a biblical passage in Erasmian in order to make sense of it ("translate") in English.jaihare wrote:Isaac Newton wrote:jaihare wrote:
And you would have grace for your mistakes? I didn't make a mistake, yet you say "stop breaking Erasmian codes and actually read the Greek." You make blatant grammatical mistakes when you attempt to construct the simplest of phrases in Greek, yet you expect me to just say, "Oh, that's OK. I realized it was just a slip." You're laughable. You know zilch about Greek - nothing - yet you think you have the right to correct everyone else. Good luck.
Why do children pick up a language almost instinctively ? Because they don't (don't know how to) break language codes, nor are they afraid of speaking what words come out of their minds, even those words which haven't been consciously filtered for grammatical errors.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
How do you know what goes on in my mind? I'll remind you that of the two of us, I'm the only one who has ever learned another language to fluency. In fact, I've learned three non-native languages to fluency. I'm far more equipped to say what goes on in the mind of a language learner than you, and I'm certainly more aware of what goes on in my own mind with regard to language processing. And it is false to assume that because someone uses a specific set of sounds, then he cannot process the language in the natural way. If οι is [ɔɪ], I process Greek better than you; and if οι is [ʏ] (like German ü), then I still process Greek better than you. Do you know why? Because I've actually put in the work to internalize the forms, whereas you simply haven't. You wouldn't know a third-declension noun if it bit you in the tuchus.Isaac Newton wrote:Those who know only how to break Erasmian codes NEVER make mistakes with their set pieces,.. that's precisely the problem Jameson. You don't seem to know how to think in koine on the go, but rather access the various paradigms which you have memorized , and then by the sheer brute force of your will you dismantle a biblical passage in Erasmian in order to make sense of it ("translate") in English.
Why do children pick up a language almost instinctively ? Because they don't (don't know how to) break language codes, nor are they afraid of speaking what words come out of their minds, even those words which haven't been consciously filtered for grammatical errors.
Last edited by jaihare on Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I certainly have.jaihare wrote:How do you know what goes on in my mind? I'll remind you that of the two of us, I'm the only one who has ever learned another language to fluency.Isaac Newton wrote:Those who know only how to break Erasmian codes NEVER make mistakes with their set pieces,.. that's precisely the problem Jameson. You don't seem to know how to think in koine on the go, but rather access the various paradigms which you have memorized , and then by the sheer brute force of your will you dismantle a biblical passage in Erasmian in order to make sense of it ("translate") in English.
Why do children pick up a language almost instinctively ? Because they don't (don't know how to) break language codes, nor are they afraid of speaking what words come out of their minds, even those words which haven't been consciously filtered for grammatical errors.
Please don't say koine is one of them, because I know that's false.In fact, I've learned three non-native languages to fluency. I'm far more equipped to say what goes on in the mind of a language learner than you, and I'm certainly more aware of what goes on in my own mind with regard to language processing.
Does this make you feel better ?If οι is [ɔɪ], I process Greek better than you; and if οι is [ʏ] (like German ü), then I still process Greek better than you. Do you know why? Because I've actually put in the work to internalize the forms, whereas you simply haven't. You wouldn't know a third-declension noun if it bit you in the tuchus.
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
(1) Which language(s) have you learned to fluency? "Please, don't say Koiné, because I know that's false."Isaac Newton wrote:Please don't say koine is one of them, because I know that's false.
(2) I first learned American Sign Language (not coded English) and received State certification as a translator. I did a B.A. in Spanish language and literature, spent time in Costa Rica and learned to speak Spanish fluently. I also speak Hebrew fluently, which I learned as an adult.
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Re: Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit
I was reading chapter 11 of Revelation and spotted another instance of constructio ad sensum at verse 4:
The author jettisons grammatical gender αὗταί (feminine) for Οὗτοί (masculine) because persons are in view. Note also the masculine participle ἑστῶτες .Οὗτοί εἰσιν αἱ δύο ἐλαῖαι καὶ αἱ δύο λυχνίαι αἱ ἐνώπιον τοῦ Κυρίου τῆς γῆς ἑστῶτες.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν