Textkit Logo

John 1:16

Are you learning New Testament Greek with Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek? Here's where you can meet other learners using this textbook. Use this board to ask questions and post your work for feedback. Use this forum too to discuss all things Koine, LXX & New Testament Greek including grammar, syntax, textbook talk and more.

John 1:16

Postby uberdwayne » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:04 pm

John 1:16 wrote:Καὶ ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος.

Hi guys,

I have 2 questions here regarding this passage. 1 is regarding punctuation and the other is regarding χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος.

Concerning punctuation, in most translations, the last part of this verse seems to be awkwardly tacked on to the end of the sentence "We have received, and grace for grace". Would it be better to remove the comma and translate the καὶ adverbially? (haha, I made the word adverb into an adverb!) We would end up with something like "And from his fullness we all have also received grace for/upon grace."

concerning the phrase χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος: There are two main streams of thought, one is that grace is piled on top of grace, with the idea that we are receiving a plethora of grace. The issue I take with this is that ἀντὶ is not typically used in the sense of "piling something on top of another" (Are there any examples of ἀντὶ being used in this way?) but rather shows a substitution. This is the second stream of thought. That a previous grace, that is, the law of Moses, has been supplanted by a newer grace, namely the new covenant which is by faith. This seems more in line with the use of ἀντὶ. The only problem here, is that the law would be considered a "grace" yet one could hardly see any grace in the law.

Any thoughts on this?
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: John 1:16

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:39 pm

uberdwayne wrote:
John 1:16 wrote:Καὶ ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος.


concerning the phrase χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος: There are two main streams of thought, one is that grace is piled on top of grace, with the idea that we are receiving a plethora of grace. The issue I take with this is that ἀντὶ is not typically used in the sense of "piling something on top of another" (Are there any examples of ἀντὶ being used in this way?) but rather shows a substitution.


This is the text cited for support of that reading (L. Morris, G.John 1971, p110, n111). As D. Carson (GJohn, 1991, p131) points out this text doesn't in fact support the notion of "grace up grace" or "grace in addition to grace" ...

Philo De post. Caini 145
διὸ τὰς πρώτας αἰεὶ χάριτας, πρὶν κορεσθέντας ἐξυβρίσαι
τοὺς λαχόντας, ἐπισχὼν καὶ ταμιευσάμενος εἰσαῦθις ἑτέρας ἀντ' ἐκείνων
καὶ τρίτας ἀντὶ τῶν δευτέρων
καὶ αἰεὶ νέας ἀντὶ παλαιοτέρων, τοτὲ μὲν
διαφερούσας, τοτὲ δ' αὖ καὶ τὰς αὐτὰς ἐπιδίδωσι. τὸ γὰρ γενητὸν

οὐδέποτε μὲν ἀμοιρεῖ τῶν τοῦ θεοῦ χαρίτων – ἐπεὶ πάντως ἂν
διέφθαρτο – , φέρειν δὲ τὴν πολλὴν καὶ ἄφθονον αὐτῶν ῥύμην ἀδυνατεῖ.
διὸ βουλόμενος ὄνησιν ἡμᾶς ἔχειν ὧν ἐπιδίδωσι πρὸς τὴν τῶν λαμβα-
νόντων ἰσχὺν τὰ διδόμενα σταθμᾶται.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: John 1:16

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:21 pm

uberdwayne wrote:
John 1:16 wrote:Καὶ ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος.

This is the second stream of thought. That a previous grace, that is, the law of Moses, has been supplanted by a newer grace, namely the new covenant which is by faith. This seems more in line with the use of ἀντὶ. The only problem here, is that the law would be considered a "grace" yet one could hardly see any grace in the law.



16 ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος· 17 ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.


In a series of lectures on the covenants given by Ralph H. Alexander Thd in the winter of 1973 at a ski lodge Mt Baker, Alexander pointed out repeatedly that the Mosaic covenant was gracious, certainly it was intended for the good of Israel. The new covenant was a better covenant.

Postcript
It appears that Ralph H. Alexander is still alive. Amazing, I sat at his table for breakfast at the conference in winter of '73 and noted with horror the number of medications he was taking with his meal. I figured he wasn't long for this world, pale and gray and all those med's.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: John 1:16

Postby uberdwayne » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:13 pm

διὸ τὰς πρώτας αἰεὶ χάριτας, πρὶν κορεσθέντας ἐξυβρίσαι
τοὺς λαχόντας, ἐπισχὼν καὶ ταμιευσάμενος εἰσαῦθις ἑτέρας ἀντ' ἐκείνων
καὶ τρίτας ἀντὶ τῶν δευτέρων καὶ αἰεὶ νέας ἀντὶ παλαιοτέρων, τοτὲ μὲν
διαφερούσας, τοτὲ δ' αὖ καὶ τὰς αὐτὰς ἐπιδίδωσι. τὸ γὰρ γενητὸν

οὐδέποτε μὲν ἀμοιρεῖ τῶν τοῦ θεοῦ χαρίτων – ἐπεὶ πάντως ἂν
διέφθαρτο – , φέρειν δὲ τὴν πολλὴν καὶ ἄφθονον αὐτῶν ῥύμην ἀδυνατεῖ.
διὸ βουλόμενος ὄνησιν ἡμᾶς ἔχειν ὧν ἐπιδίδωσι πρὸς τὴν τῶν λαμβα-
νόντων ἰσχὺν τὰ διδόμενα σταθμᾶται.


Many words I don't know here! Is this koine? and would you be able to point me to a resource to help me translate?

Also, what did you think of making the "kai" adverbial? Of course this would imply that this is an additional thing that we receive "from his fullness". I was thinking the idea of becoming "children of God" stated in verse 12. On the otherhand, if we make "kai" exigetical, then it would 'explain' what exactly it is that we are receiving.

Is my thought process on the right track?

regards,
Dwayne
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: John 1:16

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:14 pm

uberdwayne wrote:
διὸ τὰς πρώτας αἰεὶ χάριτας, πρὶν κορεσθέντας ἐξυβρίσαι
τοὺς λαχόντας, ἐπισχὼν καὶ ταμιευσάμενος εἰσαῦθις ἑτέρας ἀντ' ἐκείνων
καὶ τρίτας ἀντὶ τῶν δευτέρων καὶ αἰεὶ νέας ἀντὶ παλαιοτέρων, τοτὲ μὲν
διαφερούσας, τοτὲ δ' αὖ καὶ τὰς αὐτὰς ἐπιδίδωσι.


Many words I don't know here! Is this koine? and would you be able to point me to a resource to help me translate?


L. Morris[1] is only literal translation I have on hand and he doesn't give a full translation. "Philo speaks of God as granting 'graces' … 'others in their stead, and third ones in place of the second'" which renders the critical words

χάριτας ... ἑτέρας ἀντ' ἐκείνων καὶ τρίτας ἀντὶ τῶν δευτέρων

F.F. Bruce [2] "God varies his gifts (χάριτας), withdrawing those of which the recipients have had enough, storing them up for future bestowal, and giving others in place (ἀντ') of them and always new ones in place (ἀντὶ) of the earlier."

[1] L. Morris, G.John 1971, p110, n111.
[2] adapted from F.F. Bruce Gsp. & Epist. of John, 1983, p.65, n29.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: John 1:16

Postby uberdwayne » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:04 am

Great! Thank you for that. Essentially then, grammatically, there is no reason to translate it "Grace upon grace." So my question then is, why do most commentators suggest it?
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: John 1:16

Postby Qimmik » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:10 pm

Crude translation:

"Therefore, he always holds back the first graces before those who obtain them have too much and get fat, and then dispenses others instead of those, and a third bunch in place of the second, and constantly new ones in place of the old ones, and sometimes he adds different ones, sometimes also the same ones."

I've translated aorist participles ἐπισχὼν, κορεσθέντας and ταμιευσάμενος as finite verbs to make it read more easily in English.

διὸ τὰς πρώτας αἰεὶ χάριτας . . . ἐπισχὼν -- Therefore he always holds back the first graces,

πρὶν κορεσθέντας ἐξυβρίσαι τοὺς λαχόντας -- before those who obtain them [τοὺς λαχόντας] have too much [κορεσθέντας, literally, "become sated'] and grow fat [ ἐξυβρίσαι literally, "become overgrown", like plants],

καὶ ταμιευσάμενος εἰσαῦθις ἑτέρας ἀντ' ἐκείνων καὶ τρίτας ἀντὶ τῶν δευτέρων καὶ αἰεὶ νέας ἀντὶ παλαιοτέρων -- and then dispenses [ταμιευσάμενος] others instead of those, and a third bunch in place of the second, and constantly new ones in place of the older ones,

τοτὲ μὲν διαφερούσας, τοτὲ δ' αὖ καὶ τὰς αὐτὰς ἐπιδίδωσι -- and sometimes he adds different ones, sometimes, too, the same ones.

The metaphor is a steward dispensing food.
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: John 1:16

Postby Qimmik » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:14 pm

"Grace upon grace" would more likely be χάριν ἐπὶ χάριν.

Just like ἐπι- in ἐπιδίδωσι, in the quote from Philo.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: John 1:16

Postby uberdwayne » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:24 am

Qimmik wrote:"Grace upon grace" would more likely be χάριν ἐπὶ χάριν.


I did a random search for D A Carson and found his commentary on John. He says the exact same thing! Can't remember what page though.

Is there any reason, though, why most commentaries say "upon" rather then "instead"?
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: John 1:16

Postby Qimmik » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:43 pm

Is there any reason, though, why most commentaries say "upon" rather then "instead"?


I don't see any, but I haven't read the commentaries. Maybe there's a theological reason, which I'm not qualified to comment on.

Didn't see the continuation of the passage from Philo. Here it is, crudely again:

τὸ γὰρ γενητὸν οὐδέποτε μὲν ἀμοιρεῖ τῶν τοῦ θεοῦ χαρίτων – ἐπεὶ πάντως ἂν
διέφθαρτο – , φέρειν δὲ τὴν πολλὴν καὶ ἄφθονον αὐτῶν ῥύμην ἀδυνατεῖ.
διὸ βουλόμενος ὄνησιν ἡμᾶς ἔχειν ὧν ἐπιδίδωσι πρὸς τὴν τῶν λαμβα-
νόντων ἰσχὺν τὰ διδόμενα σταθμᾶται.

Everything that is born [τὸ γενητὸν -- "that which is born"] never fails to share [ἀμοιρεῖ - "have no share"] in the graces of the g/God -- since it would completely go to ruin [διέφθαρτο, aorist middle, from -- διαφθείρω, "destroy"] -- but it can't bear [φέρειν . . . ἀδυνατεῖ] the abundant [πολλὴν] and unstintingly plentiful [ἄφθονον] torrent [ῥύμην] of them. Therefore, since he wants us to have the benefit [ὄνησιν] of what he gives, he portions out [σταθμᾶται] what is given [τὰ διδόμενα] according to [πρὸς] the capacity [ἰσχὺν -- literally, "strength"] of those who take/receive them [τῶν λαμβανόντων].

uberdwayne, see if you can follow the Greek using this crude translation.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: John 1:16

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:06 pm

uberdwayne wrote:
Qimmik wrote:"Grace upon grace" would more likely be χάριν ἐπὶ χάριν.


I did a random search for D A Carson and found his commentary on John. He says the exact same thing! Can't remember what page though.

Is there any reason, though, why most commentaries say "upon" rather then "instead"?


Not sure what you mean by "the exact same thing" ? The exact same thing that Q said which you quote?


Carson GJohn 1991 spends pages and pages on this and he doesn't agree with the "grace upon grace" which is a traditional (modern) rendering going back at least 150 years. He ends up after reviewing all the other options going for the Mosaic convent (OT grace) contrasted with and replaced by the Incarnate Logos (NT grace) or something close to that. Alford considers that reading impossible and gives a different take on verse 17.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm


Return to Koine Greek And Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 9 guests