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Romans 12:2 and the word kai

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Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby hdsjr55 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:12 pm

Romans 12:2 speaks of "tó  dokimázein  humás  tí  tó  théleema  toú  Theoú
tó  agathón  kaí  euáreston  kaí  téleion." In the English, it would be common to find the phrase as "the good, acceptable, perfect will of God," without the use of the conjunction "and." In Romans 12:2, in the Greek the adjectives are connected with the word "and" (kai). I was trying to find out if there is any significance to this structure in the Greek as compared to the English way of not using the conjunction. Thank you for any help with this question.
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Re: Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby Markos » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:30 pm

hdsjr55 wrote:I was trying to find out if there is any significance to this structure in the Greek as compared to the English way of not using the conjunction.

No, there is not.
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby akhnaten » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:03 am

I was also having other difficulties with the word kai in Matt 22:16:

This is excerpt from the verse given in Croy:
Διδάσκαλε, οἴδαμεν ὅτι ἀληθὴς εἶ καὶ τὴν ὁδὸν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ διδάσκεις.

My attempt: O teacher, we know that you are true only if you teach the way of God in truth.
New Oxford Annotated: Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and teach the way of God in accordance with truth...
KJV: Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth...

My problem was taking εἶ καὶ as two separate words (εἶ - if, whether; καὶ - and, only, even). I looked in a few more Bibles, trying to find if anyone used my translation. That was not the case. Then, I got out the grammar:
εἶ καὶ commonly admits that a condition exists (granting that), but does not regard it as a hindrance. The condition, though it exists, is a matter of no moment so far as the statement in the principal clause is concerned. [Smyth, 2375]

And there is the problem with my translation--it emphasizes the condition, and makes the first clause is indeed dependent on the second.
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Re: Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby Vladimir » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:11 am

akhnaten wrote:I was also having other difficulties with the word kai in Matt 22:16:

This is excerpt from the verse given in Croy:
Διδάσκαλε, οἴδαμεν ὅτι ἀληθὴς εἶ καὶ τὴν ὁδὸν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ διδάσκεις.

My attempt: O teacher, we know that you are true only if you teach the way of God in truth.
New Oxford Annotated: Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and teach the way of God in accordance with truth...
KJV: Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth...

Εἶ does not mean if, it is the 2nd person singular form of the verb εἰμί. If is not accentuated in Greek, because it is a proclitic.
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Re: Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby Vladimir » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:22 am

hdsjr55 wrote: In the English, it would be common to find the phrase as "the good, acceptable, perfect will of God," without the use of the conjunction "and."

In Greek, it is necessary to use the conjunction καί if there is an enumeration. E.g., it is rather incorrect to say: παραλαμβάνει ὁ Ἰησοῦς τὸν Πέτρον, Ἰάκοβον καὶ Ἰωάννην. You should say: τὸν Πέτρον καὶ Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάννην, but in English it is more natural to say "Peter, James and John" without repeating the conjunction and.
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Re: Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby akhnaten » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:14 am

Vladimir wrote:Εἶ does not mean if, it is the 2nd person singular form of the verb εἰμί. If is not accentuated in Greek, because it is a proclitic.

oh dear! thank you very much. i spent some time reviewing these rules...and will change my method of trying to find my mistakes (i'll take a closer look at accents!).
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Re: Romans 12:2 and the word kai

Postby klewlis » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:55 pm

akhnaten wrote:
Vladimir wrote:Εἶ does not mean if, it is the 2nd person singular form of the verb εἰμί. If is not accentuated in Greek, because it is a proclitic.

oh dear! thank you very much. i spent some time reviewing these rules...and will change my method of trying to find my mistakes (i'll take a closer look at accents!).


The relative clause requires a verb (ὅτι ἀληθὴς by itself doesn't make sense) so that is the first hint. :)
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