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Inspecting John 20:28

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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:12 pm

calvinist wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:I was reading the gospel of Matthew this evening and the following captured my interest:

ὁ δὲ ἔφη αὐτοῖς Ἐχθρὸς ἄνθρωπος τοῦτο ἐποίησεν. οἱ δὲ δοῦλοι αὐτῷ λέγουσιν Θέλεις οὖν ἀπελθόντες συλλέξωμεν αὐτά;


So this pretty much takes away the bogus [trinitarian] argument that with an expression like εἶπεν αὐτῷ those being referred to with the personal pronoun (αὐτῷ) are necessarily being "identified" by what follows. .

Hi Isaac, I know I said I'd avoid your threads, but I want to correct your misunderstanding without getting into a christological debate. No one has said "with an expression like εἶπεν αὐτῷ those being referred to with the personal pronoun (αὐτῷ) are necessarily being "identified" by what follows." Of course that would be a bogus argument, in fact it would be ridiculous to say. Anything could follow εἶπεν αὐτῷ. No one with any knowledge of Greek would claim that whatever follows that phrase must be identified with αὐτῷ, that's just silly. For instance, assume John asks Jim what Genesis is about and then εἶπεν αὐτῷ... and the whole book of Genesis follows word for word. Using grammar "rules" to prove things is bad anyway, context always trumps "rules" because human languages aren't computer codes and they don't work as neatly in reality as they do in grammar books.

The argument for John 20:28 is based upon the context.


I'm glad to see that you're no longer arguing that Greek grammar at John 20:28 provides "proof" for your particular interpretation.


If it said ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου εν τη οικια εστιν, then it'd be quite possible that he was telling Jesus about someone else, but the context would determine that. And if the verb were plural εισιν, no one would argue against you. As it stands though, there is no predicate, and so it is not a clause. When someone says "dog!" or "John!" or "airplane!", they are either calling that person/thing ([b]vocative)[/b] or pointing out the person/thing to someone (nominative).


Even in English (where there is no distinction between the vocative and nominative) no reasonable person would think (let alone insist) that if Jack says to John, "dog!" that the former is identifying the latter as a "dog."

I think you have inadvertently proved my position here. In the Koine Greek ( of the GNT) we have a constant distinction made between the vocative and the nominative forms of κύριός . And you will discover that at John 20:28 the nominative form of this word is used, which is grammatical proof that Thomas , to use your own words, was not "calling that person (vocative)" .
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:48 am

I was looking at Mark 5:8 --

ἔλεγεν γὰρ αὐτῷ Ἔξελθε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἀκάθαρτον ἐκ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.


Even though Jesus addresses the possessed man ( ἔλεγεν γὰρ αὐτῷ... ), his words are directed to the [evil] Spirit in the man. Similarly, in John 20:28 even though Thomas addresses Jesus ( εἶπεν αὐτῷ...), his words (either ὁ Θεός μου or else the entire expression Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου) are directed to the Father in Jesus .

Ref. John 20:28 --
ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:17 am

A nominative for vocative use of ὁ κύριός at John 20:28 involves a mockery of Jesus because such a form is used in reference to an inferior and / or in jest . Here's GGBB, p. 57,

"The nominative for vocative can be broken down into two structural categories: anarthrous and articular... The articular use also involves two nuances: address to an inferior and simple substitute for a Semitic noun of address, regardless of whether the addressee is inferior or superior."


Wallace furnishes some examples, Mark 5:8, Eph. 5:22, John 19:3, Luke 8:54 etc...Here's one example from the list:

καὶ ἤρχοντο πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ ἔλεγον Χαῖρε, ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων· καὶ ἐδίδοσαν αὐτῷ ῥαπίσματα.



The nominative for vocative ὁ βασιλεὺς above (just as the nominative for vocative ὁ κύριός at John 20:28) would never be used by anyone who truly loves Jesus. No sheep could address their Shepherd in this fashion. This is how, rather, the goats would address Jesus.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Vladimir » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:The nominative for vocative ὁ βασιλεὺς above (just as the nominative for vocative ὁ κύριός at John 20:28) would never be used by anyone who truly loves Jesus. No sheep could address their Shepherd in this fashion. This is how, rather, the goats would address Jesus.

I can't understand why you think so if in the Grammar you have just quoted it is written that it can be used as "simple substitute for a Semitic noun of address, regardless of whether the addressee is inferior or superior".
As an example I can cite Psalm 5:3:
πρόσχες τῇ φωνῇ τῆς δεήσεώς μου, ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

So why can the noun ὁ βασιλεύς be used in this way while ὁ κύριος can't? It is true that in all examples of vocative in the Old Testament it is always κύριε, e.g. κύριε ὁ θεός μου and never ὁ κύριος, but it might be explained by the fact that κύριος substituting the tetragrammaton in LXX is always anarthrous.
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:08 pm

Vladimir wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:The nominative for vocative ὁ βασιλεὺς above (just as the nominative for vocative ὁ κύριός at John 20:28) would never be used by anyone who truly loves Jesus. No sheep could address their Shepherd in this fashion. This is how, rather, the goats would address Jesus.

I can't understand why you think so if in the Grammar you have just quoted it is written that it can be used as "simple substitute for a Semitic noun of address, regardless of whether the addressee is inferior or superior".
As an example I can cite Psalm 5:3:
πρόσχες τῇ φωνῇ τῆς δεήσεώς μου, ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

So why can the noun ὁ βασιλεύς be used in this way while ὁ κύριος can't? It is true that in all examples of vocative in the Old Testament it is always κύριε, e.g. κύριε ὁ θεός μου and never ὁ κύριος, but it might be explained by the fact that κύριος substituting the tetragrammaton in LXX is always anarthrous.


Look :

Εἰς τὸ τέλος, ὑπὲρ τῆς κληρονομούσης· ψαλμὸς τῷ Δαυΐδ. - 2 ΤΑ ρήματά μου ἐνώτισαι, Κύριε, σύνες τῆς κραυγῆς μου· 3 πρόσχες τῇ φωνῇ τῆς δεήσεώς μου, ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου. ὅτι πρὸς σὲ προσεύξομαι, Κύριε· 4 τὸ πρωΐ εἰσακούσῃ τῆς φωνῆς μου,


With Κύριε above David is directly addressing God, but ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου are nominatives of appellation.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:20 am

There are about a 100 times in the GNT where Jesus is directly addressed as "lord" , and in every instance the vocative κύριε is used , never the nominative for vocative ὁ κύριός . So the Thomas who apparently directly addresses Christ at John 20:28 as ὁ κύριός is calling out to Jesus in a voice which is not known to him. This goat betrays itself by it's voice, doesn't it ?

In any case, I would now like to print out all of the verses in the Gospel of John where Jesus is directly addressed as "lord." Doing the same for the entire bible is I think redundant.

John 4:11 -- λέγει αὐτῷ Κύριε, οὔτε ἄντλημα ἔχεις καὶ τὸ φρέαρ ἐστὶν βαθύ· πόθεν οὖν ἔχεις τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ζῶν;

John 4:15 -- λέγει πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ γυνή Κύριε, δός μοι τοῦτο τὸ ὕδωρ, ἵνα μὴ διψῶ μηδὲ διέρχωμαι ἐνθάδε ἀντλεῖν.

John 4:19 -- λέγει αὐτῷ ἡ γυνή Κύριε, θεωρῶ ὅτι προφήτης εἶ σύ.

John 4:49 -- λέγει πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ βασιλικός Κύριε, κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ παιδίον μου.

John 5:7 -- ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὁ ἀσθενῶν Κύριε, ἄνθρωπον οὐκ ἔχω, ἵνα ὅταν ταραχθῇ τὸ ὕδωρ βάλῃ με εἰς τὴν κολυμβήθραν· ἐν ᾧ δὲ ἔρχομαι ἐγὼ, ἄλλος πρὸ ἐμοῦ καταβαίνει.

John 6:34 -- εἶπον οὖν πρὸς αὐτόν Κύριε, πάντοτε δὸς ἡμῖν τὸν ἄρτον τοῦτον.


John 6:68 -- ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, πρὸς τίνα ἀπελευσόμεθα; ῥήματα ζωῆς αἰωνίου ἔχεις·

John 8:11 -- ἡ δὲ εἶπεν, Οὐδείς, κύριε. εἶπε δὲ αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Οὐδὲ ἐγώ σε κατακρίνω· πορεύου καὶ μηκέτι ἁμάρτανε.

John 9:36 -- ἀπεκρίθη ἐκεῖνος καὶ εἶπεν Καὶ τίς ἐστιν, Κύριε, ἵνα πιστεύσω εἰς αὐτόν;

John 9:38 -- ὁ δὲ ἔφη Πιστεύω, Κύριε· καὶ προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ.

John 11:3 -- ἀπέστειλαν οὖν αἱ ἀδελφαὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν λέγουσαι Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ.

John 11:12 -- εἶπαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτῷ Κύριε, εἰ κεκοίμηται, σωθήσεται.

John 11:21 -- εἶπεν οὖν ἡ Μάρθα πρὸς Ἰησοῦν Κύριε, εἰ ἦς ὧδε, οὐκ ἂν ἀπέθανεν ὁ ἀδελφός μου.

John 11:27 -- λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί, Κύριε· ἐγὼ πεπίστευκα ὅτι σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστὸς ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἐρχόμενος.

John 11:32 -- ἡ οὖν Μαριὰμ ὡς ἦλθεν ὅπου ἦν Ἰησοῦς, ἰδοῦσα αὐτὸν ἔπεσεν αὐτοῦ πρὸς τοὺς πόδας, λέγουσα αὐτῷ Κύριε, εἰ ἦς ὧδε, οὐκ ἄν μου ἀπέθανεν ὁ ἀδελφός.

John 11:34 -- καὶ εἶπεν Ποῦ τεθείκατε αὐτόν; λέγουσιν αὐτῷ Κύριε, ἔρχου καὶ ἴδε.

John 11:39 -- λέγει ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἄρατε τὸν λίθον. λέγει αὐτῷ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τοῦ τετελευτηκότος Μάρθα Κύριε, ἤδη ὄζει· τεταρταῖος γάρ ἐστιν.

John 13:6 -- ἔρχεται οὖν πρὸς Σίμωνα Πέτρον· λέγει αὐτῷ Κύριε, σύ μου νίπτεις τοὺς πόδας;

John 13:9 -- λέγει αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, μὴ τοὺς πόδας μου μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰς χεῖρας καὶ τὴν κεφαλήν.

John 13:25 -- ἀναπεσὼν ἐκεῖνος οὕτως ἐπὶ τὸ στῆθος τοῦ Ἰησοῦ λέγει αὐτῷ Κύριε, τίς ἐστιν;

John 13:36 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, ποῦ ὑπάγεις; ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς Ὅπου ὑπάγω οὐ δύνασαί μοι νῦν ἀκολουθῆσαι, ἀκολουθήσεις δὲ ὕστερον.

John 13:37 -- λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Πέτρος Κύριε, διὰ τί οὐ δύναμαί σοι ἀκολουθεῖν ἄρτι; τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω.

John 14:5 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Θωμᾶς Κύριε, οὐκ οἴδαμεν ποῦ ὑπάγεις· πῶς οἴδαμεν τὴν ὁδὸν;

John 14:8 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Φίλιππος Κύριε, δεῖξον ἡμῖν τὸν πατέρα, καὶ ἀρκεῖ ἡμῖν.

John 14:22 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰούδας, οὐχ ὁ Ἰσκαριώτης Κύριε, καὶ τί γέγονεν ὅτι ἡμῖν μέλλεις ἐμφανίζειν σεαυτὸν καὶ οὐχὶ τῷ κόσμῳ;

John 21:15 -- Ὅτε οὖν ἠρίστησαν, λέγει τῷ Σίμωνι Πέτρῳ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Σίμων Ἰωάνου, ἀγαπᾷς με πλέον τούτων; λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί, Κύριε, σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ Βόσκε τὰ ἀρνία μου.

John 21:16 -- λέγει αὐτῷ πάλιν δεύτερον Σίμων Ἰωάνου, ἀγαπᾷς με; λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί, Κύριε, σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ Ποίμαινε τὰ προβάτιά μου.

John 21;17 -- λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Σίμων Ἰωάνου, φιλεῖς με; ἐλυπήθη ὁ Πέτρος ὅτι εἶπεν αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Φιλεῖς με; καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κύριε, πάντα σὺ οἶδας, σὺ γινώσκεις ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς Βόσκε τὰ προβάτιά μου.

John 21:20 -- ἐπιστραφεὶς ὁ Πέτρος βλέπει τὸν μαθητὴν ὃν ἠγάπα ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀκολουθοῦντα, ὃς καὶ ἀνέπεσεν ἐν τῷ δείπνῳ ἐπὶ τὸ στῆθος αὐτοῦ καὶ εἶπεν Κύριε, τίς ἐστιν ὁ παραδιδούς σε;

John 21:21 -- τοῦτον οὖν ἰδὼν ὁ Πέτρος λέγει τῷ Ἰησοῦ Κύριε, οὗτος δὲ τί;


The voice of his sheep in direct address is always Κύριε, never ὁ κύριός.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Vladimir » Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:49 am

Isaac Newton wrote:With Κύριε above David is directly addressing God, but ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου are nominatives of appellation.

Yes, because here Κύριε means יהוה (YHWH).
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:24 am

Vladimir wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:With Κύριε above David is directly addressing God, but ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου are nominatives of appellation.

Yes, because here Κύριε means יהוה (YHWH).

Can you be more specific ? I don't understand your point.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Vladimir » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:33 am

Isaac Newton wrote:Can you be more specific ? I don't understand your point.

When κύριος is used instead of God's name Jehovah (Yahweh), it tends to have no article. Cf. Psalm 109:1 in Mt. 22:44 according to some manuscripts:
εἶπεν κύριος τῷ κυρίωι μου

The word κύριος is used twice, but first without an article as referring to God the Father, and then with an article as referring to the Messiah. So if κύριος meaning Jehovah normally has no article, it cannot be said ὁ κύριος in the vocative sense when referring to the Father, only (ὦ) κύριε.
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:59 pm

Vladimir wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:Can you be more specific ? I don't understand your point.

When κύριος is used instead of God's name Jehovah (Yahweh), it tends to have no article. Cf. Psalm 109:1 in Mt. 22:44 according to some manuscripts:
εἶπεν κύριος τῷ κυρίωι μου



But there are so many exceptions to your claim (eg. Mark 5:19, Luke 1:28,Luke 2:13, Acts 7:33, Acts 13:47, romans 14:4, 1 Cor. 4;19, 1 Cor. 6:13, 1 cor. 7;10, 1 Cor. 7:12, 1 Cor. 7:17, Hebrews 8:3 , James 4:15, James 5:11, James 5:15, Jude 1:5, Rev. 4:11, Rev. 21:22, Rev. 22:6, etc.). Are you suggesting something significant is going on simply because κύριος without the article is used to refer to God more times than κύριος with the article ? More importantly, how is this at all relevant to John 20:28 ?



The word κύριος is used twice, but first without an article as referring to God the Father, and then with an article as referring to the Messiah.


Ok.


So if κύριος meaning Jehovah normally has no article, it cannot be said ὁ κύριος in the vocative sense when referring to the Father, only (ὦ) κύριε.


You lost me with bold above. Could you please articulate yourself better on this score ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby BereanWay » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:27 am

Hi everyone, I am keenly searching and seeking out the scriptures in order to gain a better understanding of who Jesus is and is not. Please comment on the follow text in light of the Greek grammar and personal pronoun conversation at John 20:28. I would like to gain an understanding of how to interpret the words of Thomas correctly. Thank you for your replies. See scripture at Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! Does this mean that Peter is Satan?
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby daivid » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:26 pm

BereanWay wrote:Hi everyone, I am keenly searching and seeking out the scriptures in order to gain a better understanding of who Jesus is and is not. Please comment on the follow text in light of the Greek grammar and personal pronoun conversation at John 20:28. I would like to gain an understanding of how to interpret the words of Thomas correctly. Thank you for your replies. See scripture at Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! Does this mean that Peter is Satan?


It be very helpful if you could give your attempt at a translation as that may help us see what about the Greek you find difficult.
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:28 am

Here's Daniel Wallace on John 20:28 , Net Bible--

52sn Should Thomas’ exclamation be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted (“My Lord and my God has truly risen from the dead”), as predicate nominatives (“You are my Lord and my God”), or as vocatives (“My Lord and my God!”)? Probably the most likely is something between the second and third alternatives. It seems that the second is slightly more likely here, because the context appears confessional. Thomas’ statement, while it may have been an exclamation, does in fact confess the faith which he had previously lacked, and Jesus responds to Thomas’ statement in the following verse as if it were a confession. With the proclamation by Thomas here, it is difficult to see how any more profound analysis of Jesus’ person could be given. It echoes 1:1 and 1:14 together: The Word was God, and the Word became flesh (Jesus of Nazareth). The Fourth Gospel opened with many other titles for Jesus: the Lamb of God (1:29, 36); the Son of God (1:34, 49); Rabbi (1:38); Messiah (1:41); the King of Israel (1:49); the Son of Man (1:51). Now the climax is reached with the proclamation by Thomas, “My Lord and my God,” and the reader has come full circle from 1:1, where the author had introduced him to who Jesus was, to 20:28, where the last of the disciples has come to the full realization of who Jesus was. What Jesus had predicted in John 8:28 had come to pass: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he” (Grk “I am”). By being lifted up in crucifixion (which led in turn to his death, resurrection, and exaltation with the Father) Jesus has revealed his true identity as both Lord (κύριος [kurios], used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός [qeos], used by the LXX to translate Elohim).


Wallace's option one (Should Thomas’ exclamation be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted ) works very well indeed ! Wallace thinks the missing words in his option one (underlined below) are as follows:

“My Lord and my God has truly risen from the dead".. [ ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου ἀληθῶς ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν]

But this makes very little sense. The God of Israel dying and rising from the dead ? Why would Thomas say something so pagan all of a sudden ?

I think the missing words (underlined below) are as follows:

"My lord and my God in him !" .. [ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου ἐν αὐτῷ]. In John 20:28 Thomas finally believes what Jesus said to him and to Phillip in John 14:11 ( πιστεύετέ μοι ὅτι ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ Πατρὶ καὶ ὁ Πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοί· εἰ δὲ μή, διὰ τὰ ἔργα αὐτὰ πιστεύετε.)

By the way Wallace's option two ( “You are my Lord and my God”) doesn't work since apostle Thomas did not say "You are ..." This falls under option one ! So Wallace really only offers two genuine possibilities at John 20:28 :

(1) Thomas’ exclamation should be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted

(2) As vocatives (“My Lord and my God!”).
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Isaac Newton » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:16 am

ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου seems to be a nominative of exclamation. This is what Wallace writes in his GGBB p. 60-61 under the sub-heading VI Nominative of Exclamation:

"A Definition

The nominative substantive is used in an exclamation without any grammatical connection to the rest of the sentence.

B clarification and Significance

The use of the nominative is actually a sub category of the nominative for vocative. However, we will treat it separately and make this (somewhat) arbitrary distinction. Nominative of exclamation will not be used in direct address. It is a primitive use of the language where emotion overrides syntax: The emotional topic is exclaimed without any verb stated.

Robertson points out that this is "a sort of interjectional nominative," something of an emotional outburst. The keys to identifying a nominative of exclamation are : (1) the lack of a verb (though one may be implied), (2) the obvious emotion of the author, and (3) the necessity of an exclamation point in translation. Sometimes ὦ is used with the nominative.

C. illustrations

Romans 7:24, Rom 11:33, Mark 3:34 "


All three factors are met in ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου at John 20:28 -- the expression lacks a verb, the obvious emotion of the author is apparent and we need an exclamation point in translation.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Greg Logan » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:16 pm

Markos wrote:
We go with the context. Context is always king. Context trumps grammar 100% of the time. The context of John is that Jesus is our God.

If you are saying that he chose context over his own rule, then I would say he was right on the money.


Markos

I would agree with your hermeneutic 100% and disagree with your conclusion 100% (because it is based on a needless and baseless assumption and ultimately disregards the larger context of the whole counsel of God).

Language - especially be any given writer at any given moment - is much less rule based rather than simply expression based with the rules generally but not necessarily being followed in any given instance (some rules more so - others less so obviously).

In contrast, when we look at the entire counsel of God - we see huge, repeated, formal, unambiguous patterns that irregardless on individual instances that MAY seem otherwise - provide us a genuine expression of the culture of the authors of the Bible. These are prioritized and unless absolutely compelled, the "otherwise" statements are de-prioritized to the repeated, clear, formal statements. This is the hermeneutic I use - and it sure makes the text live and breath a lot more easily.

My point is - Jesus is "our God" - but that that is NOT an ontological statement. The context of the Gospel of John is clear - Jesus and John the B both describe a clear ontology for Jesus - and that is unambiguous and corresponds to every other author of the NT.
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby Greg Logan » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:20 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:
In response, Jesus tells Thomas and Phillip that to see him (Jesus) is to see the Father because the Father is in him (Jesus). Yet Thomas still doesn't understand. Fast forward to John 20:28 , to the next known conversation Thomas has with Jesus and our unfinished story of doubting Thomas finds a happy ending. Here Thomas understands that the Father works through Jesus, even raising Jesus from the dead, and thus to "see" Jesus is to see the Father , hence Thomas' "my lord (i.e. Jesus) and my God (i.e. the Father) " eureka cry. This interpretation explains the TSKST . It also explains the nominative ὁ κύριός rather than the vocative κύριε, which is another powerful indicator that Thomas was not addressing Jesus as his lord and God.


Issac

With respect, you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I suspect your Christological conclusion is accurate but this exegesis is so painfully strained.

May I humbly suggest that Jesus IS "our God" - AND that this is NOT an ontological statement but a statement of priority (position/authority) as Jesus Himself taught us in Jn10.... (in other words, the very context of this gospel allows for a man to be addressed as God - even by God Himself....

That is so much easier on the text plus is both relevant in the immediate context as well as the larger NT context of Jesus position relative to the rest of God's creation.

Best,

Greg
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Re: Inspecting John 20:28

Postby jeidsath » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:03 pm

This thread has wandered a long way from the discussion of Greek. I am locking it.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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