Textkit Logo

Vocab sorted via NT book?

Are you learning Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament and most other post-classical Greek texts? Whatever your level, use this forum to discuss all things Koine, Biblical or otherwise, including grammar, textbook talk, difficult passages, and more.

Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby uberdwayne » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:46 am

Anyone know of some "flashcard software" that has vocabulary separated by frequency in NT Book? I'd like to be able to memorize vocabulary as I go through certain chapters and books! It seems more relevant than going through random words.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby gregf » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:35 pm

As far as I remember, both Anki (flashcard program) and Memrise (website) offer decks that are keyed to common textbooks. You just have to search a bit. I use both services every day, but in Anki I use the 80% Greek vocab deck, and on memrise I'm working through Greek Prose Composition (thanks Bedwere!).

EDIT: Sorry, I just read your OP more closely: I don't know if they have things that are sorted by frequency, but I generally assume that if you have a good textbook they're going to be throwing the most common stuff at you first anyway.. After a year of pretty intensive Greek study, I'm finding I know about 75 to 90% of the Greek Prose Composition vocabulary already. It's more of a review for me.
gregf
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby uberdwayne » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:42 am

Thanks for your reply. I have a working knowledge of the more common words, a vocabulary somewhere around 800 words. However I find that as my vocabulary increases, the likelyhood of using those words decreases, so I lose them. If I could only get the vocabulary for a specific book Im studying, I could learn them in context and drill more frequently. It gets real time consuming to make individual cards for every word. Though I suppose I'd have them handy for future use.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby klewlis » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:48 am

It's paper, not web, but check out Kubo:
http://www.amazon.ca/Readers-Greek-Engl ... kubo+greek

It breaks down chapter/verse and includes words that occur fewer than 50 times in the GNT. So as you're reading a given book, you can look up words directly. Or you could study the words from each book.
User avatar
klewlis
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby uberdwayne » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:48 pm

ευχαριστω σοι, κλουλες!

I seen this in my "recommended" section of Amazon and didn't think twice about it. In my on-going effort to increase my vocabular, this will be a great edition for my library!

Can anyone else say anything about this book?

τι νομιζετε;
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby Markos » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:39 pm

uberdwayne wrote:Can anyone else say anything about this book? τι νομιζετε;


Haven't Reader's Editions made these Reader's lexicons superfluous and obsolete? Why flip through two books when you can have everything in one book? The R.P. Reader's GNT does include word frequency stats for the GNT as a whole, so you can target which words you want to focus on.

I have the Zondervan Reader's Hebrew Lexicon but have not used it since getting my Reader's Hebrew Bible.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby uberdwayne » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:11 am

Μαρκε, φιλε μου!

I would like to be able to review the vocabulary of a given chapter before I dive into the text, as learning it first, then reiterating it in my read-through would (hopefully) help in maintaining my vocabulary better.

Markos wrote: The R.P. Reader's GNT does include word frequency stats for the GNT as a whole, so you can target which words you want to focus on.


You do raise a good point, however... I find the running dictionary in the RP readers text to be cumbersome at best, though not as much as pulling your BDAG from the top shelf. The definitions are not listed but are in 1 seemingly endless block of tiny text, and the information is overkill! (30 words or less would have been better). For my purposes, it would not be ideal to gather the neccessary information. I could use the UBS reader, but the definitions are suited to the context, not the broad range of meaning we get from the RP reader. My goal is to be able to read from a "bare text" without need of the running dictionary.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ
uberdwayne
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby klewlis » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:02 pm

personally, I think I would find a reader's text like that too much of a crutch... for me it's better to try to remember it myself. If I need to look it up of course I do, but I don't want it to be *too* easy. :)
User avatar
klewlis
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby wayland » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:45 am

The point I don't think anyone has made yet is that Kubo, unlike the Readers' Editions, has at the start of each NT book a list of frequent vocabulary for that book. So, vocabulary that occurs more than 50 times in the NT is excluded altogether (except in Appendix I). Vocabulary that occurs 5+ times in a particular book is listed at the start of the book. Other vocabulary is listed on each page. But the feature that is relevant is the per-book frequent vocabulary. Yes, this data can probably be derived from Logos or Bibleworks too. I also wish there were a set of flashcards arranged for frequent words in eg. Johns works (the gospel, letters, and Revelation), or Luke-Acts, or Paul, but I haven't seen anything like this yet.

In response to comments about cumbersomeness/ease of *reading*, I'd rank texts like this:
- Knowing all the vocabulary (least cumbersome)
- Interlinear
- Facing-page editions
- Readers' Editions & Readers Lexica (including things like Zerwick & Grosvenor)
- Using an actual lexicon (most cumbersome)

Each of these has other advantages and disadvantages. For example, people enjoy hating on an interlinear and facing-page editions, but I think they do have at least one good use for most people; following along when someone else is reading. This is why I take my facing-page edition to church and Bible study, because it means I can focus on the Greek text, but if I get lost, or am not keeping up, the facing page can get me sorted quickly.

I agree with uberdwayne that (given sufficient space to spread out), the two-book solution feels a bit less cumbersome than the readers' edition (partly because the vocab is listed in a continuous paragraph), but it's a useful idea to have a bookmark for each which can be set on the page to help you remember where you're up to. In response to klewlis, I'd at least agree that it's important to get the right amount of assistance to maximise your activity, which depends on both goals and current brain configuration.

Regarding goals, for some, the point is just to get through some text and keep the vocab they already have, and picking up new stuff is just a bonus. For others, they want to learn new vocab. Still others want to train their brain to keep vocab by penalising it when it forgets things (I'm assuming this is where klewlis is; I've been there).

Regarding current brain configuration, some people are better at not looking at aids unless they really need them (and the more cumbersome layout of the vocab in readers' editions can help with this). Some people whose Greek is worse need more help because of where they're at at the moment.

Anyway, I hope some of this helps someone.
wayland
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:14 am

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby daveburt » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:26 am

This mobile app (designed for iPhone originally but just recently available on Android as well) fits the OP's request perfectly:
Bible Vocab+

It allows you to select a book or chapter or arbitrary passage, and a vocab frequency range (e.g. 5-30 occurrences) and generates reviews. You can review them straightforwardly like a slide deck, swiping through them, and it also implements 'spaced repetition' (though a less sophisticated form than Anki etc.) to focus on the harder items as you bed them down in your memory. You can have it pick glosses from half a dozen different sources. It's also beautiful.

Full disclosure: I am a friend of the developer, and he is a top bloke.
daveburt
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:25 am

daveburt wrote:You can have it pick glosses from half a dozen different sources.

Intermediate level language learners are sometimes confused by polysemy as they are exposed to more challenging texts. Knowing only one of the meanings for "litter" would result in a range of understandings for a text like, "Within the forest evironment, while larger animals like rabbits and foxes live in burrows, cockroaches and other insects breed among the litter".

Coming to a technical (specialist) text like the New Testament from a general background, knowing παρασκευάζειν / παρασκευὴ to be in the sense of "to prepare" and "preparation", might not be able to guess that in the New Testament, it always means "Friday", and so too for the majority of instances of ἄγγελος and half of the instances of ζύμη.

For those who progress in their Greek solely or mainly reading from the NT corpus, similar issues arise from beginning with single word glosses. If the gloss is chosen based on the most frequent meaning of a word, then it is only suitable for when one is reading a text with its most common meaning. [If a gloss is chosen because it us the most "literal" or eytmologically correct "meaning" then it is applicable in even fewer circumstances - perhaps none.] Learning perhaps a single word gloss for, say, λογίζομαι based on the most frequent meaning of "calculate", or a two-word gloss "calculate", "consider", based on the two most frequent meanings will give rise to a situation like my "litter" example. The other meanings of λογίζομαι viz. "believe" and "think about" are overlooked (swept under the carpet in the process of simplification). In most people's acquisition of glosses for the most common words, there is substantial data loss.

I don't think there is much point at all in learning single or two-word glosses for prepositions of for some simple nouns with suffixed prepositions. The range of meaning is so broad and so contextually determined.

Is your friend's software sophisticated enough to give the contextually "correct" gloss for a word where it is found in the "book or chapter or arbitrary passage"?
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby daveburt » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:28 am

ἑκηβόλε, You're right that polysemy is important to understand and bad glosses can be harmful. But most students don't memorize full dictionary definitions, competent students do understand polysemy (you don't learn it by learning vocab), and the OP seems to be interested in learning the word more generally as part of learning Greek, rather than focusing on its meaning in the passage. This is a simple tool to make and use word lists.

The glosses, as I said, come from other sources: Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary, Dodson, Deeper Greek, Basics of Biblical Greek, Duff: The Elements of NT Greek, Decker: Reading Koine Greek, and Baugh: A New Testament Greek Primer. Most students will learn glosses from their textbook. Those glosses provide hooks to hang a fuller definition learned from a lexicon and from real contexts.
daveburt
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:23 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
daveburt wrote:Is your friend's software sophisticated enough to give the contextually "correct" gloss for a word where it is found in the "book or chapter or arbitrary passage"?


Not a trivial problem. Shared an office 30 years ago with people who were working on software that could do that.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:34 am

daveburt wrote:ἑκηβόλε, You're right that polysemy is important to understand and bad glosses can be harmful. But most students don't memorize full dictionary definitions, competent students do understand polysemy (you don't learn it by learning vocab),

To look at poles for a moment, might be helpful, without forgetting that most of the population live in one or other of the temperate zones or even near the equator.

At one extreme there is the student who learns glosses from all semantic domains, as they learn the word, then has the tools ready to tackle any text. At the other extreme, there is the student who learns single glosses in context, without bothering to putt 2 and 2 together, ie without caring that the word is the same identical in form.

It seems that the second approach is the most viable way forward beyond a lower intermediate level. That is the type of learner who relearns a new set of glosses for each context. In a dead language that is generally a new authour or work, while in a living language, it is a new field. Within a limited scope and quite narrow corpus such as the New Testament, the hook idea might wirk more effectively than it would on a wide range of authours and works over several millennia.

The strategies for learning the context independent words - ones with by and large their own meanings - is different to the ones that are largely context dependent. Learning glosses is a more and a less effective method respectively. For those with a context dependent sense, a central idea is logical, while for others with more specific meaning, glossing is fine - if the English is unambiguous.

the OP seems to be interested in learning the word more generally as part of learning Greek, rather than focusing on its meaning in the passage.

Well... each to his own reading of that.
uberdwayne wrote:I'd like to be able to memorize vocabulary as I go through certain chapters and books! It seems more relevant than going through random words.

While I think that the OP was assuming (or hadn't given thought to whether) that a highest-frequency-within-the-corpus gloss would be the most adequate, I think he is better served by seeing a word in a conyextual list of glosses with the meaning in the context he is reading.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:15 am

daveburt wrote:Most students will learn glosses from their textbook.

That is logical and the software appears to serve that particular purpose.

To make a comment on the oresentation of glosses...
There is a bit of slight of hand in the claim that learning a single gloss of a high frequency word will give you great results in comprehension. The truth that forms the basis of the lie is that in many cases it does, but shadow lurking behind that truth is that comprehension will only be 100% possible in those occurences wherethe authour used it in the most common sense. Perhaps something like παραλύεσυαι "to be a paralytic" (4:5); "go weak at the knees" (1:5)
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:16 am

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Shared an office 30 years ago with people who were working on software that could do that.

paratext?
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:39 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Shared an office 30 years ago with people who were working on software that could do that.

paratext?


Had to lookup paratext. The two people I shared a cube with in the late 1980s were certified AI Associates (Advanced Technology Center, Boeing Computer Services) who were trained in natural language semantics problem solving. Their work was tangential to network management and control systems. I wasn't involved in their work.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Vocab sorted via NT book?

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:18 am

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Shared an office 30 years ago with people who were working on software that could do that.

paratext?


Had to lookup paratext. The two people I shared a cube with in the late 1980s were certified AI Associates (Advanced Technology Center, Boeing Computer Services) who were trained in natural language semantics problem solving. Their work was tangential to network management and control systems. I wasn't involved in their work.

For an AI routine that could do that, a number of people of the calibre of mwh would have to critically evaluate their decision making strategies as they worked through a text describing the steps they took and the background knowledge required for making valid decisions. The thought patterns of ten or twenty competent users of the language would form a good basis.

For NT Greek, the corpus has been so extensively studied, evaluated, debated gfoup of texts - it is highly processed; sliced, diced and packaged product. There only needs to be a table of correspondences that can be called upon, then a set of glosses for a chapter or certain portion could be generated. Even for other works or corpora, it would only take a finite length of time to generate context based dictionary correlations as a basis for generating glossaries. The Cambridge dictionary project seems to have tackled that issue to some extent.

That type of context determined glossary would form the basis for exploring other passages where the word or phrase is used in the same sense, rather than in different senses. 8)
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC


Return to Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek