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infinitives

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:23 am
by bacon

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:07 am
by Bert
I don't have much time now but if no one else has answered by tomorrow or Wednesday, I'll have a crack at it.

Re: infinitives

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:59 pm
by IreneY

Re: infinitives

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:11 pm
by Bert

Re: infinitives

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:37 am
by Bert

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:38 am
by bacon

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:52 am
by Bert
bacon wrote: 3. My question here was why the participle πεμψασιν had a third declension ending? Or more generally, how is declension for a participle chosen? The endings for nouns are determined by whether the noun is first, second or third declension. But verbs, not being nouns, do not have declension, however participles are declined. I was assuming that a verb like αποστελλω, when used as a participle would assume the declension of the noun αποστολος. I found a third declension noun corresponding to the verb πεμψασιν and I though I had the pattern. Hence my question of what declension a participle would take when the verb did not have an obvious noun partner. Did I clarify my misunderstanding?

I understand your 3rd question now. Thanks.
bacon wrote:4. When making a reply to a post, how do you get the "Quote:" and then the boxed text from the previous post?
Thanks again.

You can click on the "quote" button on the post you want to reply to and add your reply to the bottom of it. (You can delete irrelevant parts of the quote.)
You can also just cut and paste the quote into the "Post a reply" box, then highlight it and click on the "Quote" button just below the subject line.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:00 am
by IreneY
1. As you've seen from Bert's reply it's not necessary to be in a theatrical play :D . What I meant (in rather bad English) is that in theatrical plays, in the dialogue parts, they immitate oral speach which is much more abreviated usually.

2. Is subject between inverted commas in the book? If so, then he should have explained a bit further what he meant. I hope I made it clear.

3. Yes you did. A rather logical one I think

4. The easiest way for me (others may have a different way of doing things) is to
a) click on "Quote" on the upper right corner of the message I want to quote
b) if I want to make separate boxes as I did above, I highlight each section and then click on "quote" above the reply white box
You can experiment (just hit preview to see if you got it right and just don't post it :) )

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:09 am
by Bert
IreneY wrote:

2. Is subject between inverted commas in the book? If so, then he should have explained a bit further what he meant.

It is indeed between quotation marks. What he means by that is, an infinitive is by definition a non-finite verbal form. So...No subject.
The accusative of reference limits the infinitive the way a subject limits a finite verb.
So it is like a subject but it is not really a subject, hence: "subject."

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:15 am
by IreneY
an Infinitive does have a real subject. An impersonal verb however by definition doesn't. (and I still think he should have explained it further :) )

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:50 pm
by Bert
bacon wrote: 3. My question here was why the participle πεμψασιν had a third declension ending? Or more generally, how is declension for a participle chosen? The endings for nouns are determined by whether the noun is first, second or third declension. But verbs, not being nouns, do not have declension, however participles are declined. I was assuming that a verb like αποστελλω, when used as a participle would assume the declension of the noun αποστολος. I found a third declension noun corresponding to the verb πεμψασιν and I though I had the pattern. Hence my question of what declension a participle would take when the verb did not have an obvious noun partner. Did I clarify my misunderstanding?

The declension of participles has nothing to do with the declension of a cognate noun or adjective.
Active participles are 3-1-3. (masc. 3rd- fem. 1st- neut. 3rd)
Middle/passives are 2-1-2
Passives are 3-1-3

In your original post you wrote
I looked in little Liddell and found a verb πεμπτος which is third declension
You probably just mis-typed but πεμπτός is not a verb but an adjective. (A verbal adjective.)
It is not 3rd declension but 2-1-2.

Keep asking questions. I learn at least as much from answering them (and from reading the replies of others) as you do from reading my answers. :)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:09 am
by bacon

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:51 am
by bacon
After my last post I thought of a variant of the parsing that would still give the same answer. I'm a little bothered by the unaugmented aorist stem being πεμπ. Here goes.
unaugmented aorist stem: πεμψα
tense formative: σα this would be an additional tense formative to the one buried in the previous ψα
1st aorist active participle morpheme: ντ
3rd declension, plural, dative case ending: σι(ν)
giving πεμψα + σα + ντ + σι(ν)
πεμψασα + ντ + σι(ν) removing first + sign
πεμψαα + ντ + σι(ν) σ is intervocalic and drops out
πεμψα + ντ + σι(ν) one of the double α 's drops out according to BBG p.145, 17.10 rule 1
πεμψαντσι(ν) removing + signs
πεμψασιν ντ drops out before σ

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:28 pm
by Bert
bacon wrote: where is the plural dative noun that the participle is modifying?(since the participle has to match it in case, number and gender).

Here the participle stands on its own. There is no noun present for it to modify but in English you have to supply one. to THOSE who sent us, or, to THE MEN who sent us. See paragraph 29.6 of BBG. (Paragraph 29.5 if you have the 1st edition.)
bacon wrote:I choose plural dative only because it gives the right answer, not because I understand why it works.

The way you parse πέμψασιν showed to me that you did understand how it works so I'm not sure what you are not sure of :) .

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:36 pm
by Bert
bacon wrote:After my last post I thought of a variant of the parsing that would still give the same answer. I'm a little bothered by the unaugmented aorist stem being πεμπ. Here goes.
unaugmented aorist stem: πεμψα
tense formative: σα this would be an additional tense formative to the one buried in the previous ψα

Some grammars will call πεμπ the aorist stem and σα the tense formative.
Others would call πεμψα the aorist stem. In the latter case don't add a tense formative. It is part of the stem.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:49 pm
by bacon

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:07 pm
by IreneY

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:23 pm
by Bert
IreneY wrote:hmmm let's see:

First of all, a participle is a verbal noun, a gerund if you wish that can also act as an adjective or an adverb. When without an article it is usually translated with a gerund (-ing), when it has an article with an adjective.


Maybe this is considered a mere technicality but in my view, a participle is a verbal adjective, not a noun.
English has gerunds but Greek does not.
The English word "sitting" can be (1) a gerund, (2) an adjectival participle and (3) a adverbial participle.
(1) Sitting can be hard on the back.
(2) The man sitting at the desk is my boss.
(3) The man eats his lunch sitting at his desk.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:22 pm
by IreneY
Well, I always considered gerund to be closer to what a participle is although I realise that the English gerund is sometimes 'translated' as an infinitive in ancient Greek. (as in your 1st example)

I am not comfortable with calling it a verbal adjective for two reasons:
a)it doesn't describe participle all that well.
b)adjectives deriving from verbs such as those ending in -τέος or -τος are called verbal adjectives and are completely different from what a participle is.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:00 am
by Paul
IreneY wrote:I am not comfortable with calling it a verbal adjective [because] it doesn't describe participle all that well.


OK, I'll bite - how does the description "verbal adjective" fall short?

Cordially,

Paul

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:21 am
by IreneY