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Liddell 101

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Liddell 101

Postby bacon » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:25 am

First, I need to thank again all the responders to my previous questions, from the moderators to the neophytes(IreneY, you don't seem like a neophyte to me) you guys are good, and fast. Thanks for teaching me what you know. You're saving me a bundle on tuition!

(all the references to Liddell are to Greek- English Lexicon, Liddell and Scott, abridged)
As I begin to leave the cradle of BBG and use other references I've come to have some questions regarding Liddell.
1. What is "Middle Liddell" that I have seen referred to in several posts?
2. Is there any way of finding the declension of a noun using Liddell? Cross checking some nouns with Liddell vs BBG it seems that if Liddell lists the genitive it's third declension and if it doesn't, the noun is first or second. Is that the rule?
3. Some verbs in Liddell have the other tenses listed(e.g. αγναεω) and some do not(e.g. αγιαζω). Why the difference?
4. BBG gives the root of a particular verb in the vocabulary section, though not in the appendix lexicon. Liddell gives no roots. Is there a way of finding the root? (here are two examples; αγνoεω: based on it's similarity with a verb like ποιεω, I would expect a 1st person singular to look like αγνoω, the ε being the contract vowel. αγαλλιαω: here it is not clear to me whether the final α is a contract, like αγαπαω, or not, and whether the 1st person singular would look like αγαλλιαω, or αγαλλιω. Is Liddell giving clues I'm not getting or is this where experience with the language will be my guide?)
5. Liddell lists αγαλλιαω(the active form) and then in the meaning section says the verb can also be deponent, αγαλλιαομαι. BBG in sec 18.13, pg. 151, "In a single tense a verb will be either regular or deponent. It cannot be both." What is happening in this instance?
6. This may be related to the previous question. The BBG lexicon shows the verb 'to bring good news' to be ευαγγελιζω, Liddell lists the same verb as ευαγγελιζομαι, a deponent verb. Why the difference?
7. In the BBG workbook, the noun κιβωτος is given the meaning "ark" in an exercise using a verse from Genesis. Liddell only lists the meaning as "a wooden box, chest, coffer". Does this imply that Greek did not have a word for ark, and since the ark was basically a wooden box, albeit a large one, the nearest descriptive word to it was used?
8. Back to the verb αγνoεω, the meaning given in both BBG and Liddell is 'to not know'. Is there a qualitative difference between using αγνoεω and the negation of γινωσκω, something like ου' γινωσκω?
Thanks again for all responses.
bacon
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Postby IreneY » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:18 pm

bacon thanks for the compliment :)

As I haven't slept for more than 24 hrs I will try to be coherent but can't promise much. I cannot also not give you any information regarding the books we inquired about I am afraid.

However, and judging solely by the two examples you gave on Question 3, I'd say he follows the pattern most of my school books did/do. In other words, he lists the other tenses only if there's an irregularity to them. If you can form the other tenses -as in the case of αγιάζω- by following the rules then he doesn't.

about question 4. all verbs ending in -αω -εω -οω contract the vowel. I guess the book takes that as a given knowledge for some reason.

Question 5 I think I am too tired and dizzy to understand but maybe things won't get any better after I sleep (I can be extremely stupid at times)

Question 6, ευγγελίζω is a later 'creation' meaning exactly the same as 'ευαγγελίζομαι'. It's one of these 'go figure' situations I guess, since you may find both used at the same period of time.

Question 7 I would reply if I knew what ark, or its Hebrew equivalent really means but since to my mind it means κιβωτός which of course originally meant "wooden box" I can't help you:)

Question 8. While the two can be used in the same context at times, αγνοώ basically means 'being ignorant' so there is a slight difference between that and ου γιγνώσκω.

Not much help, I know, but I hope I answered some of your questions (till someone makes a better job of it)
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Re: Liddell 101

Postby annis » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:32 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Liddell 101

Postby Bert » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:04 pm

bacon wrote:IreneY, you don't seem like a neophyte to me
Being a neophyte does not refer to someone's expertise in Latin or Ancient Greek but to thevnewness (the # of posts) to this site.
Irene is a neophyte but I can tell that she knows a lot more about Greek than I do. The nice thing about this site is that beginners and experts engage in discussions without the beginners being made to feel like dummies.

annis wrote:
2. Is there any way of finding the declension of a noun using Liddell? Cross checking some nouns with Liddell vs BBG it seems that if Liddell lists the genitive it's third declension and if it doesn't, the noun is first or second. Is that the rule?


Yep.
It is hard to deduce from the nom. sg. of 3rd declension nouns what the stem of the noun is unless the gen. is listed as well.
Most (all?) masc. 1st decl. nouns are listed with the gen. sg. as well.



bacon wrote:5. Liddell lists αγαλλιαω(the active form) and then in the meaning section says the verb can also be deponent, αγαλλιαομαι. BBG in sec 18.13, pg. 151, "In a single tense a verb will be either regular or deponent. It cannot be both." What is happening in this instance?


The problem with beginning grammars and primers is that in order to prevent major confusion, the information has to be given in simplyfied form without mentioning all the possible quirks and exceptions. There are active and middle forms with the same meaning, and there are middle aorist and passive aorist forms with the same meaning.
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