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Composition Critique needed:

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Composition Critique needed:

Postby JauneFlammee » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:11 pm

My pastor has been doing a series of dreadfully boring sermons, so to prevent nodding off, I've been trying to translate some of the morning hymns into greek. Can someone critique the following effort?

[face=SPIonic]
ton xriston asfela petran epistamai ,<br>
pas eteros xqonos esti ammos kataduwn

[/face]


(I haven't learned accents yet)

One question also: where would I place the article in this section
[face=SPIonic]pas eteros xqonos[/face] ?
Also, if i wanted to use 'men..de' construction: they would just be the second word in each sentence, correct?

"On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand..."
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Re: Composition Critique needed:

Postby Bert » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:51 am

JauneFlammee wrote:My pastor has been doing a series of dreadfully boring sermons, so to prevent nodding off, I've been trying to translate some of the morning hymns into greek. Can someone critique the following effort?
I think you have studied more Greek than I have but I hope you won't mind if I make a few comments anyway.
(I have this picture in my mind of someone sitting in Church, chewing on his pencil, notepad on his knee, looking at the ceiling. :wink: )
JauneFlammee wrote:

[face=SPIonic]
ton xriston asfela petran epistamai ,<br>
pas eteros xqonos esti ammos kataduwn

[/face]

I think the third word should be a)sfala=
According to Middle Liddell e)pi/stamai is Ionic. Maybe you want to use e)fi/stamai.
Maybe a movable Nu on esti -> estin a)/mmoj can also be a(/mmoj. I don't know if a movable Nu goes before a rough breathing or not.
a)/mmoj is feminine so you would have to have the fem. participle, katadu/ousa.
JauneFlammee wrote:One question also: where would I place the article in this section
[face=SPIonic]pas eteros xqonos[/face] ?

I don't know if it needs an article
JauneFlammee wrote:Also, if i wanted to use 'men..de' construction: they would just be the second word in each sentence, correct?

That's right. I don't think I would use men but only de (I can't explain why though)

I sure hope I won't be the only one commenting because my comments will likely need comments.
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Postby JauneFlammee » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:37 pm

Thanks Bert,
I appreciate your comments, I may have read a bit more but you are a far more detail oriented studier,as far as I can tell your correct on all accounts.
[face=SPIonic]e)pi/stamai[/face] was completely the wrong word.
[face=SPIonic]asfela[/face] was a spelling error on my part. And I need to brush up on my participles a bit. The great thing about composition is it shows you how much you don't know.
I wish the moderators would start a composition board. It would go well with composition downloads, I'm just not sure there would be any interest.

Here's a composition challenge for you Bert (and other textkitters). Here's a few lines from a short poem (pre-1900: no copyright), no strange words.
(Be Strong, by Maltbie Davenport Babcock, circa 1890).

Be Strong!
We are not here to play, to dream to drift;
We have hard work to do, and loads to lift;
Shun not the struggle-face it; tis God's gift

(I spent about 45 minutes doing a really horrid botch translation which I'm too embarrassed to post: the only uncommon word might be 'play' which i think is [face=SPIonic] paizw [/face].
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Postby annis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:18 am

JauneFlammee wrote:I wish the moderators would start a composition board. It would go well with composition downloads, I'm just not sure there would be any interest.


A comp board is planned.

Be Strong!
We are not here to play, to dream to drift;
We have hard work to do, and loads to lift;
Shun not the struggle-face it; tis God's gift


Well, the second line comes easily.

[face=spionic]mh/te pai/zein, mh/t' a)rgei=n, mh/te plana=sqai pefu/kamen.[/face]

I just used "be lazy" for "to dream" since in English that implies lying about doing nothing, but I'm not sure Greek has the same association.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby Bert » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:56 am

annis wrote:
Well, the second line comes easily.


Sure. Rub it in. I took a lot of work for me.
[face=SPIonic]e)/ste karti/stoi
ou)k e)sme\n i(na pai/zwmen h)\[/face]
dream [face=SPIonic]h)\ planw/meqa
dei= poiei=n h(mi=n polu\ e)/rgon kai\ fe/rein fora/j[/face]

I don't have anything for the third line yet but it is bed time now.

I don't imagine that my word for strong means the kind of mental strength this poem speaks of.

For compostion work I'll need a E-G lexicon.
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Postby Bert » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:19 pm

Alright. I completed it to a certain degree of satisfaction. (This degree is not perfection but the best of my ability.)
[face=SPIonic]krataiou=sqe
ou)k e)sme\n i(/na pai/zwmen h)\ a)lu/wmen h)\ planw/meqa
dei= poiei=n h(mi=n polu\ e)/rgon kai\ ai)/rein fora/j
mh\ a)le/sasqe th\n ma/xhn, a)ntible/peste au)th=|
dwrea\ ga\r a)po\ qeou=[/face]

Okay, JauneFlammee! Your turn. I did mine and I did not hear anyone laugh so go ahead.
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Postby annis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:40 pm

Bert wrote:
annis wrote:
Well, the second line comes easily.


Sure. Rub it in. I took a lot of work for me.


Well, I only did the one line for a reason.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby chad » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:58 am

hi, i just noticed this cause i don't come to this forum often, but i just saw this composition exercise and wanted to have a go too, here's my quick attempt in dactylic hex :)

[face=SPIonic]ou)de\n e)/oike ma/thn dhqu/nein, a)/mmoros e)/rgwn:
qarsh/saj q' i(/sth, ta/ te kai\ tetelesme/na r(e/con,
dw=ra de\ kala\ de/xesqai e(khbo/lou )Apo/llwnoj.[/face]

it's not at all right/proper to loiter idly, without a share in deeds/actions,
and so taking courage stand up, and accomplish the things to be done,
and receive (inf. as imperat. in epic) the fine gifts from far-shooting apollo.

i'll go have some lunch and see if this makes sense at all after :) :)

edit: changed (ekhbo/lou to e(khbo/lou, still don't have spionic so i miss things like this...
Last edited by chad on Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby annis » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:13 am

chad wrote: here's my quick attempt in dactylic hex :)

[face=SPIonic]ou)de\n e)/oike ma/thn dhqu/nein, a)/mmoros e)/rgwn:
qarsh/saj q' i(/sth, ta/ te kai\ tetelesme/na r(e/con,
dw=ra de\ kala\ de/xesqai (ekhbo/lou )Apo/llwnoj.[/face]


Cool!

I have some worry about [face=spionic]te/ kai[/face] used this way, but other than this anxiety for me, it's quite nice.

It seems some form of [face=spionic]o)tru/nomai[/face] could be used here with epic effect, too, instead of literal "stand!"
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby chad » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:24 am

hi will, thanks for the tips :) the 1st thing that came to mind was "tou/neka qarsh/saj" and then an adapted plural form of the "to\ de\ kai\ tete..." formula used elsewhere in homer, but then i thought de\ wouldn't follow the aor. ppl. very well, so i put an imperat. in the hemiepes part (as your article puts it) instead of the tou/neka and then to avoid having too many de/-s i changed them to te/-s because i was getting hungry. 15 mins later after a spanish empanada i feel a lot better :) i've just realised another problem with this is that i'm referring to apollo, giver of the fine things, in a forum about biblical greek... that can't be good :)
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Postby annis » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:26 am

Bert wrote:Alright. I completed it to a certain degree of satisfaction. (This degree is not perfection but the best of my ability.)
[face=SPIonic]krataiou=sqe
ou)k e)sme\n i(/na pai/zwmen h)\ a)lu/wmen h)\ planw/meqa
dei= poiei=n h(mi=n polu\ e)/rgon kai\ ai)/rein fora/j
mh\ a)le/sasqe th\n ma/xhn, a)ntible/peste au)th=|
dwrea\ ga\r a)po\ qeou=[/face]


Aww... you changed [face=spionic]fe/rein fora/j[/face] for "loads to lift" which I quite liked... you preserved the alliteration.

I'd be inclined to use [face=spionic]para\ qeou=[/face] for "from god." I'm more used to [face=spionic]para/[/face] for things like letters and orders coming from someone, so it seems like it would work here, too.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Bert » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:13 am

annis wrote:Aww... you changed [face=spionic]fe/rein fora/j[/face] for "loads to lift" which I quite liked... you preserved the alliteration.

You are right about the "Aww." It was un-intentional.
Yesterday when I typed this up I had [face=SPIonic]ai)/rein [/face]and a blank for burden.
When I found a word for load ([face=SPIonic]fora/j[/face]) I thought it would be logical to use [face=SPIonic]fe/rein [/face]instead of [face=SPIonic]ai)/rein [/face]but I didn't change it in my notes. So, lo and behold, today I typed the word I didn't want.
I appreciate your comments.
I figured you would be the one to come up with something in (hexa)metre but Chad was the one.
I thoroughly enjoyed doing this bit of composition but I can't make it sound poetic yet, even though Chad, in his article, makes it sound so easy.[face=Arial][/face][face=Arial][/face][face=Arial][/face]
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Postby Bert » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:04 am

chad wrote: i've just realised another problem with this is that i'm referring to apollo, giver of the fine things, in a forum about biblical greek... that can't be good :)

Moderator...Please remove this heretic and burn his writings!
:D
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Postby JauneFlammee » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:00 pm

Hey, mine wasn't that far off after all. I don't have time to write it all out and its pretty similar to yours Bert, except I used a string of infinitives for line 2. The only real differnce is I used [face=SPIonic]apexw[/face] and [face=SPIonic]metexw[/face] for 'shirk' and 'face it'.

Thanks for taking up the challenge everyone.

Heres the rest of the poem if anyone is interested to tackle it further. If I get time I'll try to tackle a section but I'm super busy right now. Hopefully Annis and Chad will have a hexameter face-off.

Be strong!
Say not, "The days are evil. Who's to blame?"
And fold the hands and acquiesce -- oh shame!
Stand up, speak out, and bravely in God's name.

Be Strong!
It matters not how deep entrenched the wrong,
How hard the battle goes, the day how long;
Faint not - fight on! Tommorrow comes the song.
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Postby klewlis » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:22 pm

fun times. I want to join in but I'm moving tomorrow and all my books and stuff are in boxes. :)
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Postby JauneFlammee » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:46 pm

Dang it, that online Woodhouse dictionary is just too much fun to play with.

The second stanza is way over my head, but here is my first draft at the third stanza.

[face=SPIonic]
krataiou=sqe
amelhte metacu to baqwn adikwn,
h metrwn ainwn dhitwn h mhkou hmerhj ;
ou mh analkisesqe de maxete. H alalh nikhs eleusei tinhj hmerhj
[/face]
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Postby annis » Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:22 pm

JauneFlammee wrote:Hopefully Annis and Chad will have a hexameter face-off.


Elegiacs, I should think, in the manner of Solon or Theognis.
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Postby Bert » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:05 pm

Today and yesterday I had some extra time on my hands, I sure won't be able to spend as much time on this on a regular basis.
It is tough to try and translate some of the idiomatic phrases, but here is my attempt.
[face=SPIonic]krataiou=sqe.
mh\ le/gete o(/ti [/face]
"[face=SPIonic] h(me/rai kakai/ ei)sin. ti\j ai)/tios au)twn;[/face]"[face=SPIonic]
e(/zesqe kai\ me/lete; po/poi.
i(/stasqe de\ kai\ e)cei/rete eu)kardi/wj e)n o)no/mati Qeou=

krataiou=sqe.
o(/ssh ti a(marti/a, o(/ssh ti mega/lh ma/xh, o(/ssh ti makrh/ h(me/ra:
qarsei=te kai\ maxou=. a)ei/somen ei)j au)/rion.[/face]
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Postby annis » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:47 pm

So I'm taking an occasional look at the poem text, thinking about how I might tackle this or that phrase, and I find this:

Faint not - fight on! Tommorrow comes the song.


"Tomorrow comes the song." What in the world does this mean? You get the sabbath off? Is there a musical prelude to the rapture? What?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby annis » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:54 pm

Bert wrote:[face=SPIonic]o(/ssh ti a(marti/a, o(/ssh ti mega/lh ma/xh, o(/ssh ti makrh/ h(me/ra:
qarsei=te kai\ maxou=. a)ei/somen ei)j au)/rion.[/face]


[face=spionic]o(/ssh[/face]... woo-hoo! Bert's using epic forms!

[face=spionic]maxou=[/face] - I assume you mean [face=spionic]maxei=sqe[/face] (number).
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby Bert » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:12 pm

annis wrote:So I'm taking an occasional look at the poem text, thinking about how I might tackle this or that phrase, and I find this:

Faint not - fight on! Tommorrow comes the song.


"Tomorrow comes the song." What in the world does this mean? You get the sabbath off? Is there a musical prelude to the rapture? What?

This is the first time I have seen this hymn.
JauneFlammee translated is as 'cry of victory'.
I think he means that it represents the moment of Christ's return, when the struggle will end.
I am inclined to think that it means to indicate the contrast between here and the new heaven and earth. Between struggling and singing. That's why I choose to translate it as 'we will be singing.'
So, you were close when you asked if we get the sabbath off. The "hereafter" is also refered to as the "eternal sabbath."
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Postby annis » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:14 pm

Bert wrote:I think he means that it represents the moment of Christ's return, when the struggle will end.


I thought as much, but it seemed wise to get confirmation before working the translation. [face=spionic]xa/rin soi[/face].
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby annis » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:19 pm

Part the First. Strophe.

[face=spionic]
karterei=t', ou) mh\n ga\r e)/fumen e)p' ai)=an
h)\ paidia\n pai/zein h)\ r(a|qumei=n
h)\ plana=sqai, kai\ po/noi a)/mmi forhtoi/:
mh\ qeo/dmhton a)=qlon feuktia=te.[/face]


Other sections later. For the moment I leave the meter as a puzzle for Chad. :) [face=spionic]ponoi/[/face] is uu by correption.

EDIT: added [face=spionic]mh/n[/face] to line 1. I always mess something up for these.
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Postby annis » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:16 am

Part the Second. Antistrophe.

Having penned myself in with the the meter of the strophe, the antistrophe took more work. I also had to aim even more for meaning than wording.

[face=spionic]karterei=t', ai)w=noj e)/ontoj e)/t' ai)sxrou=,[/face]
"[face=spionic]tau=t' ou)k e)f' h(mi=n,[/face]" [face=spionic]mh\ fa/skhte:
feu= de\ sugxwrh/sioj ai)/sxesi pa/ntoj[/face]!
[face=spionic]marturou=ntej qeo\n le/ght' a)lhqe/j.[/face]


In the second line, "these things are not up to us" is lifting a bit of Stoicism, which tends to fatalism.

For those not used to epicisms, [face=spionic]e)/ontoj[/face] = [face=spionic]o)/ntoj, sugxwrh/sioj[/face] = [face=spionic]sugxwrh/sewj[/face].
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Postby JauneFlammee » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:51 pm

(Hearty round of applause).

Does this subject matter remind anyone else of the 'Choice of Heracles' by Xenophon? I don't have it handy and I'm not sure there is an online version, but I bet most of the lines could be lifted straight from that story.
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Postby annis » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:30 pm

JauneFlammee wrote:Does this subject matter remind anyone else of the 'Choice of Heracles' by Xenophon? I don't have it handy and I'm not sure there is an online version,


Memorabilia 2.1.21ff (the page starts at 2.1.1... you'll need to scroll down).
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Postby Bert » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:35 pm

annis wrote:
Bert wrote:[face=SPIonic]o(/ssh ti a(marti/a, o(/ssh ti mega/lh ma/xh, o(/ssh ti makrh/ h(me/ra:
qarsei=te kai\ maxou=. a)ei/somen ei)j au)/rion.[/face]


[face=spionic]o(/ssh[/face]... woo-hoo! Bert's using epic forms!
Actually, you and the other Pharr-a guides have created a monster. I am using epic forms unawares. now I don't know which dialect I'm butchering, epic or koine.
annis wrote:[face=spionic]maxou=[/face] - I assume you mean [face=spionic]maxei=sqe[/face] (number).

Right you are.
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