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Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:23 am
by uberdwayne
Hey guys. Here's a passage that I'm having a problem with.

Heb 4:12

Ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἐνεργὴς καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας·


The issue that I'm having is with "ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος." My question is this: Does the "καὶ" in this phrase show us where the division takes place (i.e soul seperated from spirit?) or does it simply create two seperate divisions (i.e soul seperated in two AND spirit seperated in two.).

If you know, can you tell me how you came to your conclusion?

thanks.

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:30 pm
by Markos
Hey guys...


χαῖρε καὶ σύ, ἄριστε!

…Does the "καὶ" in this phrase show us where the division takes place (i.e soul seperated from spirit?)


ναί.

...or does it simply create two seperate divisions (i.e soul seperated in two AND spirit seperated in two.).


οὐχί.

If you know, can you tell me how you came to your conclusion?


διότι ἡ γραφὴ λέγει τὸ “ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ,” οὐ τὸ “ἀχρὶ μερισμῶν.”

ἔρρωσο.

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:57 pm
by uberdwayne
χαιρε μαρκος,

αρι βλεπω αυτο. ο λογος εις ουκ εστιν, αλλα πολλυς αυτος

ευχαριστω σοι.

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:54 pm
by Markos
πάνυ γε, ὦ βέλτιστε. τὸ γὰρ «ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ» ἑνικόν μὲν έστιν, πληθυντικὸν δ’ οὐ.

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:39 pm
by piro
can it be -

to division of soul and spirit against joints and marrows?

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:47 pm
by Markos
can it be -

to division of soul and spirit against joints and marrows?


Hi, Piro. Welcome to Textkit!

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the division of soul and spirit FROM joints and marrows, as if the division envisioned is to separate soul/spirit from joints/marrows? What underlying point are you supposing the author is making here, beyond simply two difficult divisions that only a sharp knife could accomplish?

Μᾶρκος

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:36 pm
by piro
as soul and spirit invisible and the other pair is visible

then is logic that division could be understood as amongst visible and invisible

spirit creating thought

soul creating feelings

they come to visible world into joints and marrows - in the heart - internal parts of us
so God word can see them on the fly or at the moment of appearing

why the end of phrase saying -and judging thoughts and notions of the heart

Re: Heb 4:12

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:04 pm
by Markos
as soul and spirit invisible and the other pair is visible


Okay, so if you mean "up to the division of, on the one hand, soul and spirit, and, as against this, even the division of joints and marrow," sure I think καί, if the contexts supports it, can cover this range of meaning.