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Heb 4:12

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Heb 4:12

Postby uberdwayne » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:23 am

Hey guys. Here's a passage that I'm having a problem with.

Heb 4:12

Ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἐνεργὴς καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας·


The issue that I'm having is with "ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος." My question is this: Does the "καὶ" in this phrase show us where the division takes place (i.e soul seperated from spirit?) or does it simply create two seperate divisions (i.e soul seperated in two AND spirit seperated in two.).

If you know, can you tell me how you came to your conclusion?

thanks.
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby Markos » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:30 pm

Hey guys...


χαῖρε καὶ σύ, ἄριστε!

…Does the "καὶ" in this phrase show us where the division takes place (i.e soul seperated from spirit?)


ναί.

...or does it simply create two seperate divisions (i.e soul seperated in two AND spirit seperated in two.).


οὐχί.

If you know, can you tell me how you came to your conclusion?


διότι ἡ γραφὴ λέγει τὸ “ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ,” οὐ τὸ “ἀχρὶ μερισμῶν.”

ἔρρωσο.
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby uberdwayne » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:57 pm

χαιρε μαρκος,

αρι βλεπω αυτο. ο λογος εις ουκ εστιν, αλλα πολλυς αυτος

ευχαριστω σοι.
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby Markos » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:54 pm

πάνυ γε, ὦ βέλτιστε. τὸ γὰρ «ἀχρὶ μερισμοῦ» ἑνικόν μὲν έστιν, πληθυντικὸν δ’ οὐ.
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby piro » Mon May 20, 2013 4:39 pm

can it be -

to division of soul and spirit against joints and marrows?
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby Markos » Tue May 21, 2013 4:47 pm

can it be -

to division of soul and spirit against joints and marrows?


Hi, Piro. Welcome to Textkit!

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the division of soul and spirit FROM joints and marrows, as if the division envisioned is to separate soul/spirit from joints/marrows? What underlying point are you supposing the author is making here, beyond simply two difficult divisions that only a sharp knife could accomplish?

Μᾶρκος
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby piro » Tue May 21, 2013 5:36 pm

as soul and spirit invisible and the other pair is visible

then is logic that division could be understood as amongst visible and invisible

spirit creating thought

soul creating feelings

they come to visible world into joints and marrows - in the heart - internal parts of us
so God word can see them on the fly or at the moment of appearing

why the end of phrase saying -and judging thoughts and notions of the heart
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Re: Heb 4:12

Postby Markos » Wed May 22, 2013 5:04 pm

as soul and spirit invisible and the other pair is visible


Okay, so if you mean "up to the division of, on the one hand, soul and spirit, and, as against this, even the division of joints and marrow," sure I think καί, if the contexts supports it, can cover this range of meaning.
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