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Acts:6-9 grammar help

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:04 am
by PeterD
χαίρετε παῖδες,

Holy Zeus! It's around 4am Saturday morning here in Montreal -- bad case of insomnia induced by Greek Grammar stress! So please bare with me if I'm a little incorent. :?

I have some questions about sentence patterns -- i.e., subordinate participial clauses, etc. -- and just plain grammar. For instance,

Acts 1:6: οἱ μὲν οὖν συνελθόντες ἠρώτων αὐτὸν λέγοντες, κύριε, εἰ ἐν τῷ χρόνῳ τούτῳ ἀποκαθιστάνεις τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ )ισραήλ;
Here we have two subordinate participial clauses: συνελθόντες and λέγοντες. Would the principal clause then be the entire verse οἱ μὲν...τῷ )ισραήλ or just the direct question: κύριε, εἰ ... τῷ )ισραήλ?

Acts 1:8: ... καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς why is the adjective ἐσχάτου in the neuter and not fem.?

Acts 1:9: καὶ ταῦτα εἰπὼν βλεπόντων αὐτῶν ἐπήρθη. I have here a genitive absolute subordinate participial clause: βλεπόντων αὐτῶν. Since the finite verb in the main clause is in the aorist and the participle is in the present, can I translate this as "And when He had said these things, as they were watching Him, He was raised up" ? Why is αὐτῶν genitive plural and not genitive singular since we are saying HIM and not Them?

Thanks a million,

PeterD

Re: Acts:6-9 grammar help

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:51 pm
by Bert
Your first question I'll leave for someone more knowledgeable
PeterD wrote:

Acts 1:8: ... καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς why is the adjective ἐσχάτου in the neuter and not fem.?
My abridged lexicon (shorter Gingrich and Danker) has about ἔσχατος as a substantive " τὸ ἔσχατος ". It gives two examples Acts 1:8 and Acts 13:47.
PeterD wrote:
Acts 1:9: καὶ ταῦτα εἰπὼν βλεπόντων αὐτῶν ἐπήρθη. I have here a genitive absolute subordinate participial clause: βλεπόντων αὐτῶν. Since the finite verb in the main clause is in the aorist and the participle is in the present, can I translate this as "And when He had said these things, as they were watching Him, He was raised up" ? Why is αὐτῶν genitive plural and not genitive singular since we are saying HIM and not Them?
I think, " as they watched" is fine, but not " as they watched Him". αὐτῶν refers to 'they', the ones doing the watching.
I hope I was helpful.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:58 pm
by PeterD
Thank you. :)

Re: Acts:6-9 grammar help

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:47 pm
by klewlis
PeterD wrote: Acts 1:6: οἱ μὲν οὖν συνελθόντες ἠρώτων αὐτὸν λέγοντες, κύριε, εἰ ἐν τῷ χρόνῳ τούτῳ ἀποκαθιστάνεις τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ )ισραήλ;
Here we have two subordinate participial clauses: συνελθόντες and λέγοντες. Would the principal clause then be the entire verse οἱ μὲν...τῷ )ισραήλ or just the direct question: κύριε, εἰ ... τῷ )ισραήλ?
If I were diagramming this, I would consider the main clause to be:
[size=134]οἱ συνελθόητες ἠρώτων αὐτὸν[/size]

Everything else modifies...

Acts 1:8: ... καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς why is the adjective ἐσχάτου in the neuter and not fem.?
It's functioning as a substantival, not an adjective, and it's being modified by [size=134] τῆς γῆς[/size] :)
Acts 1:9: καὶ ταῦτα εἰπὼν βλεπόντων αὐτῶν ἐπήρθη. I have here a genitive absolute subordinate participial clause: βλεπόντων αὐτῶν. Since the finite verb in the main clause is in the aorist and the participle is in the present, can I translate this as "And when He had said these things, as they were watching Him, He was raised up" ? Why is αὐτῶν genitive plural and not genitive singular since we are saying HIM and not Them?
I believe Bert is right here. It may make more sense to see it quite literally: "during the watching of them".

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:29 pm
by PeterD
Makes sense. Thank you Canucks. :D

Re: Acts:6-9 grammar help

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:46 pm
by Skylax
Sorry I had not seen bert's and klewlis' fine replies before posting.
PeterD wrote: I have some questions about sentence patterns -- i.e., subordinate participial clauses, etc. -- and just plain grammar. For instance,

Acts 1:6: οἱ μὲν οὖν συνελθόντες ἠρώτων αὐτὸν λέγοντες, κύριε, εἰ ἐν τῷ χρόνῳ τούτῳ ἀποκαθιστάνεις τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ )ισραήλ;
Here we have two subordinate participial clauses: συνελθόντες and λέγοντες. Would the principal clause then be the entire verse οἱ μὲν...τῷ )ισραήλ or just the direct question: κύριε, εἰ ... τῷ )ισραήλ?
I am afraid my parsing habits are not yours.
For me, a "clause" (in French "proposition") is made up of a subject and a verb (whatever the case of the subject), having a role AS A GROUP in the sentence. So I see συνελθόντες as a participle in apposition to οἱ, the subject of the main verb ἠρώτων and λέγοντες as a predicate of the same οἱ. So, for me, the entire group οἱ μὲν οὖν συνελθόντες ἠρώτων αὐτὸν λέγοντες forms a clause introducing the direct discourse (which is not strictly speaking "subordinate"....)… if it is a direct discourse at all : yes, the vocative would denote a direct discourse but εἰ introduces an indirect question, so what ? In any case, I see two « clauses » in this sentence.
Acts 1:8: ... καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς why is the adjective ἐσχάτου in the neuter and not fem.?
to\ e)/sxaton : the end (« the extreme thing »)
Acts 1:9: καὶ ταῦτα εἰπὼν βλεπόντων αὐτῶν ἐπήρθη. I have here a genitive absolute subordinate participial clause: βλεπόντων αὐτῶν. Since the finite verb in the main clause is in the aorist and the participle is in the present, can I translate this as "And when He had said these things, as they were watching Him, He was raised up" ?
Yes, you can. It is right.
Why is αὐτῶν genitive plural and not genitive singular since we are saying HIM and not Them?
In your translation, αὐτῶν is translated by « they », it is the subject in the genitive of βλεπόντων. Him is added. The Greek expresses simply « as they were watching ».



χαῖρε καὶ σύ, τέκνον

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:43 pm
by PeterD
Nothing to be sorry about . Thank you as well for your input.

Have a great weekend all. :D