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Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

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Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:52 am

One of the example sentances for chapter 6 is:
εγω γινωσκω ὁτι το εργον τετελεσται


Translated: I know that/because the work is finished.

Isn't the word 'εγω' at the beginning redundant?
Could one not simply say: γινωσκω ὁτι το εργον τετελεσται

Also later he has:
αυτοι τον θεον οψονται


Couldn't you simply write: θεον οψοντα.

Why is 'αυτοι τον' necessary?
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:16 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:One of the example sentances for chapter 6 is:
εγω γινωσκω ὁτι το εργον τετελεσται


Translated: I know that/because the work is finished.

Isn't the word 'εγω' at the beginning redundant?
Could one not simply say: γινωσκω ὁτι το εργον τετελεσται


Yes, it's redundant and yes, one could. But when the personal pronoun IS used, it often conveys emphasis, such as contrasting the actions/thoughts of one person compared to another.

ChristHaunted wrote:Also later he has:
αυτοι τον θεον οψονται


Couldn't you simply write: θεον οψοντα.


Well, αυτοι is a bit redundant, but it's anaphoric to the specific people (those pure of heart) who are blessed in that particular beatitude. The personal pronouns DO serve a function in Greek--they're not just redundancies. They may perform a lot of functions. Here they serve somewhat as demonstratives.

In contrast to the case with the personal pronoun, the article, τον, is NOT redundant. The word for God is almost always articular in the New Testament. This particular usage would be considered the "monadic use of the article," to emphasize the ONE god. Remember, it made absolute sense in Grecoroman times to say "a god." To say "αυτοι θεον οψονται" would mean "they shall see a god." That's not the same as saying "they shall see God." Furthermore, the article is commonly used with proper names, unlike in English. So you'll see "the Peter," "the James," "the Jesus" etc. When translating, you wouldn't write "the"; you'd simply write "God," "Peter," "James," "Jesus," and so on. Wallace has an excellent chapter on the Greek article in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, which I highly recommend to you.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:54 pm

First of all thank you for answering my questions. I hope they do not seem too ridiculous.

jswilkmd wrote: The word for God is almost always articular in the New Testament. This particular usage would be considered the "monadic use of the article," to emphasize the ONE god. Remember, it made absolute sense in Grecoroman times to say "a god." To say "αυτοι θεον οψονται" would mean "they shall see a god." That's not the same as saying "they shall see God."


What about this?
καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος
What God was in essence, the word was.

Furthermore, the article is commonly used with proper names, unlike in English. So you'll see "the Peter," "the James," "the Jesus" etc. When translating, you wouldn't write "the"; you'd simply write "God," "Peter," "James," "Jesus," and so on.


My son and I have been laughing at that as we go.

Wallace has an excellent chapter on the Greek article in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, which I highly recommend to you.


Is this available online?
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:19 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:What about this?
καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος
What God was in essence, the word was.


That illustrates yet another use of the article. The article may be used (it's used in dozens of ways) to distinguish between subject and predicate nominative in equative constructions. Copulas (verbs that equate one thing with another) don't always mean things are equal in a reciprocal fashion. For example, "Florence Sabin was an important figure in Colorado history" does not quite mean the same thing as "An important figure in Colorado history was Florence Sabin." In English, we use word ORDER to distinguish between what is the subject and what is the predicate in such constructions. In Greek, where word order plays a much less important role in conveying syntax, other features are used to distinguish between subject and predicate in such constructions. ONE way--among three or four--is that the subject is identified with the article.

Therefore, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος is rendered as "The word was God," and not as "God was the word," because Λόγος is articular and is therefore the subject. Θεὸς is anarthrous specifically to identify it as the predicate.

ChristHaunted wrote:
Wallace has an excellent chapter on the Greek article in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, which I highly recommend to you.


Is this available online?


No, but used copies are available on Amazon and it is well worth the $30-$45 you'll invest in it. If you had access to only one book about New Testament Greek syntax, choose this one.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:43 pm

I wish it were available on Kindle. Alas.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby calvinist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:38 am

I would recommend Wallace's Basics of New Testament Syntax. It's an abridgement of Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. You can find it on amazon for about $15 used. Its much smaller and has all the major categories and discussions. It will serve you well as a reference grammar. I own both, but I usually use Basics of New Testament Syntax, it's small enough to bring to the coffee shop and browse through like a novel. His coverage of the article is excellent.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:19 pm

Many thanks for all the help.

Another silly question. What is the direct object in the following sentence since nothing is accusative?

και νυν ἡ βασιλεια σου οὐ στησεται
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:36 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:Many thanks for all the help.

Another silly question. What is the direct object in the following sentence since nothing is accusative?

και νυν ἡ βασιλεια σου οὐ στησεται


Verbs that take an object are called transitive verbs. Verbs that don't take an object are called intransitive verbs. The verb here is intransitive.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:13 pm

English grammar is slowly returning to me.

So could one simply change the case to genitive and drop the 'σου' ?

και νυν τησ βασιλειησ ου στησεται
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:27 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:English grammar is slowly returning to me.

So could one simply change the case to genitive and drop the 'σου' ?

και νυν τησ βασιλειησ ου στησεται


No. That would not mean "your kingdom" at all. In fact, what you've written is nonsensical.

By the way, to make a terminal sigma, you use a lower case J, not the S key.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:59 pm

jswilkmd wrote:By the way, to make a terminal sigma, you use a lower case J, not the S key.


My final sigma is on the w key. Depends on the keyboard input method.

και νυν ἡ βασιλεια σου οὐ στησεται


In this sentence, ἡ βασιλεία is the subject of the middle-voice verb.
σου means "your" and is necessary.
ἡ βασιλεία σου is "your kingdom."
οὐ is the negative.
στήσεται is "it will stand" (future middle).
The whole thing: and now your kingdom will not stand.

To make ἡ βασιλεία accusative, you have to have a verb that takes a direct object.
ὄψονται τὴν βασιλείαν σου - "they will see your kingdom"
Last edited by jaihare on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:02 pm

jaihare wrote:My final sigma is on the w key. Depends on the keyboard input method.


Interesting. For me, the w key is for omega.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:38 pm

I am still confused then. Why have case endings at all if you still need personal pronouns?

I was thinking that 'thekingdomofyou' could be applied to whom ever the author is speaking.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:44 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:I am still confused then. Why have case endings at all if you still need personal pronouns?

I was thinking that 'thekingdomofyou' could be applied to whom ever the author is speaking.


I'm confused about what the problem is. Case is not about PERSON. It's about FUNCTION in a sentence.

"Of you" (σου) functions the same as "of God" (τοῦ θεοῦ).

ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ = the kingdom of God
ἡ βασιλεία σου = your kingdom
ἡ βασιλεία αὐτοῦ = his kingdom
ἡ βασιλεία ἡμῶν = our kingdom

What's the problem with this? It's not a problem with the case system but with the way that you're understanding it.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:53 pm

jaihare wrote:What's the problem with this? It's not a problem with the case system but with the way that you're understanding it.


I am not mocking it, I am just trying to understand.

To say something is "of" another thing usually implies separation, possession, or cause in English.

The Constitution of the United States (belonging to)
St. Mark of Westminster Colorado. (from)
East of Eden (separation)

So in a sentence where someone is speaking about "your kingdom", wouldn't it be implicit that the genitive implies the person being spoken to? Or by the context of who is being spoken to?

In your example, 'your', 'his', and 'our', are persons. But your kingdom is nominative.

I was just thinking in Greek you could shorten the statements like;

St. Mark fromColorado.
Constitution ofUnited States
Last edited by ChristHaunted on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:58 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:So in a sentence where someone is speaking about "your kingdom", wouldn't it be implicit that the genitive implies the person being spoken to? Or by the context of who is being spoken to?

In your example, your, his, and our, are persons. But your kingdom is nominative.


Of course they are people. ;) Do you think that we don't refer to God as "you" in Greek?
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:14 pm

I guess I need to read it again slowly and let it sink in. I also have the audio lectures by Mounce which are helpful.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:21 pm

ChristHaunted wrote:I was just thinking in Greek you could shorten the statements like;

St. Mark fromColorado.
Constitution ofUnited States


In those examples, only "from Colorado" and "of the United States" would be in the genitive. "St. Mark" and "Constitution" would be in whatever case necessary to fulfill their role in the sentence. If "St. Mark" were the subject, it would be in the nominative, if the direct object of a verb that takes an accusative object, then it would be in the accusative. If an indirect object or the object of a verb that takes a dative object, than "St Mark" would be in the dative, etc.

Here's an example in English nearly paralleling the structure of the sentence that is giving you trouble:

Your flashlight will not work.

In Greek, "flashlight," being the subject of the sentence, would be in the nominative. "Your," being possessive, would be in the genitive. "Will...work" would be a future tense verb. "Not" would modify the verb. Note that the verb is intransitive and that there is no object in this sentence.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:42 pm

Right.

I was under the impression somewhow that the Greek really would consist of three words:

willwork not flashlightofyou.
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby jswilkmd » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:21 am

ChristHaunted wrote:Right.

I was under the impression somehow that the Greek really would consist of three words:

willwork not flashlightofyou.


That's where you tripped up. "flashlight" and "you" serve different functions in the sentence and they would be two separate words in two different cases. Flashlight is nominative because it's the subject; you is genitive, because it's possessive. Flashlightofyou is an impossible construction in Greek.

Now, flashlight is possible to use in the genitive, as in "I'm not going to pay for half of a flashlight!" In Greek, I would be in the nominative (or implied in the conjugation of the verb), am going to pay for would be a 1st person singular future active indicative verb, not would be the negative particle, half would be the accusative direct object and of a flashlight would be a noun in the genitive, modifying and limiting half.

Does this make the cases any clearer?
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby calvinist » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:20 am

"Your kingdom" can be thought of as "the kingdom of you" in Greek. In English we like to use a possessive pronoun ("your") whereas Greek prefers to use the genitive of the pronoun "you" --> "of you".

Its also important to realize that the genitive case is not equal to the English "of". The two ideas overlap considerably, which is to our advantage. But the Greek genitive owes no allegiance to English usage of the word "of".

The cases represent relationships. The nominative, accusative, and dative relate a nominal to a verb. The genitive relates a nominal to another nominal. The word it is related to is usually right in front of it, but not always, and it can be in any case. You cannot combine two separate nouns into one word in Greek though. The genitive does tie two words together, but they still remain as distinct words: "kingdom of-you".
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Re: Mounce Workbook Chapter 6 Questions

Postby ChristHaunted » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:18 pm

Thank you (plural) very much.

All of you have been very helpful.
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