Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

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Bart
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Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by Bart »

I'm returning to the Iliad after an interval of nearly 6 months (real life, new born son, sleepless nights, busy job: all feeble excuses, I know) and what joy it is to be reading Homer again. I see that my comrade in arms Huilen has finished the Odyssey in the mean time: congratulations to him!

Okay, book 11, Nestors' speech. An interesting bit of oratory and highly effective since it suggests to Patroclus the scheme that will ulitmately prove his undoing (going into battle with Achilles' weaponry).
Two things that come to my mind when reading this speech:
-It's very long. Actually whenever Nestor begins to speak you know you're in for the long haul. Of course he is presented as an orator etcera, but is there also some humour here at the expense of an old man, who just can't stop speaking about old times? Or would that be a scandalous idea to the Greeks (poking fun at old age, l mean).
-The story about the border war and grabbing of sheep, horses and cows seems quite obscure and unimpressive. The great Mycenan kings as mere cattle thieves. Is this an echo perhaps of the impoverished state of Greece in the so called dark ages?

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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by Niedzielski »

Munro notes, "The story he tells of the war between the Pylians and Eleans (670 -762) is probably a later addition. It is quite out of keeping with the situation, and spoils the effect of the characteristic story which follows (765 - 790)." He raises questions of authenticity at three points within those passages. Consoling? What often boggles my mind is how one can deign to interpolate when it so drastically affects the poem.

Nestor's recollections of the good old days is worth study. I myself considered humour when I was a younger student so many months ago but then I decided to replace that feeling with charm when I came to appreciate more fully the compelling portrait of an old wise man Homer draws out, and I expect in turn to replace that feeling with wisdom because I suspect there is a deeper meaning to his reminiscences. A really telling word of his for me is when Nestor advises each of his men to "neither trusting in his horsemanship and his valour be eager to fight with the Trojans alone in front of the rest, nor let him draw back ktl" because it finds an echo in the words of Aias about the body of Patroclus, whose death I often imagine as a mythical origin of the hoplite phalanx. In fact, this matter weighs heavily on my mind, and I have ensnared myself in secondary literature already a few times, and if some kind person were to say "Phillip! You utterly foolish man! What an interpretation - Homer and the Origins of the Phalanx!? What a simpleton!", and if this kind person proceeded to dispel me of my imaginations with a good reason or two, I would be much obliged, because my mind is oppressed by the implications of such an interpretation, namely, what I must consider to be the worth of the great throngs of men who have written a great plenty on the subject of the hoplite phalanx in Homer omitting this too simply idea - that the question of the origins of the phalanx were evidently as pressing in the mind of Homer as it is among our modern scholars, so I think it might be easier if I could just find fault with myself instead of nurturing such wild ideas.

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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by mwh »

Welcome back Bart!

Like all of Nestor’s speeches, this one is paradigmatic. (It’s certainly no interpolation.) It’s more complicated than the rest, however, since it pertains both to Patroclus and to Achilles. Nestor’s father did not want him to fight, but he fights anyway—successfully. Achilles does not want Patroclus to fight (beyond a certain point), but he does—unsuccessfully. (NB the most spine-chilling words in the entire poem at 11.603: κακοῦ δ’ἄρα οἱ πέλεν ἀρχή.) Nestor fought for the community, winning glory for himself—an exemplum for Achilles, who still refuses to (note the 761 segue).

Some see traditional material, Pylian epic, in Nestor’s reminiscences, but it’s quite possible the whole thing is Homeric invention.

Nestor is no figure of fun, but it’s hard not to see a touch of Homeric humour in the old man’s garrulity and nostalgia. But all his speeches have point and purpose; they're protreptic.

Livestock are an important form of wealth, so cattle-raiding is serious business. Achilles went in for it too (e.g. 20.90).

The phalanx formation does seem to exist in Homer.

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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by Bart »

Is this perhaps a description of the phalanx formation?

Iliad 13, 130-135:
φράξαντες δόρυ δουρί, σάκος σάκεϊ προθελύμνῳ·
ἀσπὶς ἄρʼ ἀσπίδʼ ἔρειδε, κόρυς κόρυν, ἀνέρα δʼ ἀνήρ·
ψαῦον δʼ ἱππόκομοι κόρυθες λαμπροῖσι φάλοισι
νευόντων, ὡς πυκνοὶ ἐφέστασαν ἀλλήλοισιν·
ἔγχεα δʼ ἐπτύσσοντο θρασειάων ἀπὸ χειρῶν
σειόμενʼ· οἳ δʼ ἰθὺς φρόνεον, μέμασαν δὲ μάχεσθαι.

mwh
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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by mwh »

Certainly looks like it, and it’s a key passage. But the representation of warfare in the Iliad is such a tangle. How coherent is it? How realistic? How far does it reflect real-life warfare, and of what period or is it an amalgam? Etc. etc. You have these close formations, you have war-chariots used only as transport, you have bowmen, you have mass fighting, spears for throwing and for thrusting and swords and stones, routs and rallies, duels, promachoi, …. People keep coming up with different ideas to tie it all together.

But we’re straying far from Nestor and his speeches.

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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by Paul Derouda »

Straying still farther... What do you think about the stones? Were they really thrown, or were they more like shot with slings?

mwh
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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by mwh »

Offhand I can’t think of a passage where they’re said to be slung by sling. Aren’t they always represented as being hurled by hand? Men were super-strong back then, remember.

Bart
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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

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Back to Nestor: is his advice in general really that sound? I must confess I haven't kept track of all the instances he intervenes (that's for a second read-through maybe), but I can think of three examples where he misses the mark.
-in book 2 he sides with Agamemnon's idiotic plan to raise morale.
-in book 11 he sends poor Patroclus to his death (though one could say that's a good thing for the Greeks since it brings Achilles back)
-in book 14 he suggests the wounded Greek heroes keep far away from battle at a very crucial moment. It's Diomedes who suggests a better alternative that they act upon.

So, apart from everyone saying he is a wise councellor, in what way does he actually show he is?

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Paul Derouda
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Re: Iliad 11, Nestors' speech

Post by Paul Derouda »

I would say that since Nestor is a traditional character, he does not need to be shown to be a good counsellor. The audience would have already known that for a fact. For that reason, Homer needs no special pleading in making the other heroes follow his advice, even when it's ultimately idiotic.

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