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me/n - de/ in Iliad 18 - 20

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:41 am
by Bert

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:04 am
by IreneY
Hmmm

The second pair (this and that to you, this and that to me) seems to me to be the right one. I am afraid I got a bit confused about what you mean about no finitive verb etc. There's no need to repeat the verb since it is easy to understand what it is by context (DOIEN)

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:32 am
by perispomenon
I went for the imperative option: the gods may grant the Achaeans to sack a city, but it seems strange to me to say 'may the gods grant you to free my daughter'. The Achaeans are free to decide for themselves to do that, I would think.

I translated it as 'may the gods grant you to sack the city (...), but free my daughter and accept these ransoms'.

I really didn't think too much about de/ though.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:53 pm
by annis

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:15 am
by Bert

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:21 am
by annis
Bert wrote:With δοῖεν coming after me/n I would be looking for another verb in the second clause.


Ahh. While μέν often does follow words to which attention seems to be directed, it and δέ may refer rather to the entire clauses in which they appear (Smyth 2915).

Pharr says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?


Yes, but. :)

I'd say that it's often tough to make a firm distinction between clause and sentence in Homer. In comparing texts I find editors often differ among themselves on whether to us a comma, a period or a raised-dot. λῦσαι might just as well be taken to complement δοῖεν, too. Well, maybe that's a stretch, but I think it's not completely indefensible.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:24 am
by IreneY
Ah!! Now I see the light (took me a while).

I'm afraid I cannot add anything to what annis has already said

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:38 pm
by Paul

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:28 am
by cdm2003
Paul wrote:I detect a meaningful contrast in the analogy gods:heros::heros:"regular men". So it is quite natural for me to locate the μέν / δέ contrast along the lines of "as the gods give you, may you give me."


Could it even be a simpler contrast, as if Chryses is implying "I really hope you get what you want (μέν) and that I get what I want (δέ)?"

Chris

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:18 pm
by Paul
cdm2003 wrote:Could it even be a simpler contrast, as if Chryses is implying "I really hope you get what you want (μέν) and that I get what I want (δέ)?" Chris

Sure. That seems quite reasonable to me.
-pb