## me/n - de/ in Iliad 18 - 20

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### me/n - de/ in Iliad 18 - 20

á½‘Î¼á¿–Î½ Î¼á½²Î½ Î¸ÎµÎ¿á½¶ Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½ á½ˆÎ»á½»Î¼Ï€Î¹Î± Î´á½½Î¼Î±Ï„' á¼”Ï‡Î¿Î½Ï„ÎµÏ‚
á¼￾ÎºÏ€á½³Ï￾ÏƒÎ±Î¹ Î Ï￾Î¹á½±Î¼Î¿Î¹Î¿ Ï€á½¹Î»Î¹Î½, á¼￾á½º Î´'Î¿á¼´ÎºÎ±Î´' á¼±Îºá½³ÏƒÎ¸Î±Î¹Î‡
Ï€Î±á¿–Î´Î± Î´'á¼￾Î¼Î¿á½¶ Î»á¿¦ÏƒÎ±á½· Ï„Îµ Ï†á½·Î»Î·Î½, Ï„á½± Ï„' á¼„Ï€Î¿Î¹Î½Î± Î´á½³Ï‡ÎµÏƒÎ¸Î±Î¹

I don't know if the me/n - de/ pair is; (1) On the one hand may they grant to you the city of Priam to sack, on the other hand may you arrive home safely, or; (2) On the one hand may THEY grant TO YOU the city to sack and to arrive home safely and YOU return TO ME my daughter . .
The one possibility leaves the first DE/ clause without a finite verb which the second possibility solved by including it with the verb DOI=EN but then the second DE/ clause is left without a finite verb.
Pharr takes choice (2) and he says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?
It would seem natural (how would I know though) to take the following de/ to belong to me/n. If the intend was to take the second de/, the ambiguity could be avoided by replacing the first one with te.
Bert
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Hmmm

The second pair (this and that to you, this and that to me) seems to me to be the right one. I am afraid I got a bit confused about what you mean about no finitive verb etc. There's no need to repeat the verb since it is easy to understand what it is by context (DOIEN)

IreneY
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I went for the imperative option: the gods may grant the Achaeans to sack a city, but it seems strange to me to say 'may the gods grant you to free my daughter'. The Achaeans are free to decide for themselves to do that, I would think.

I translated it as 'may the gods grant you to sack the city (...), but free my daughter and accept these ransoms'.

I really didn't think too much about de/ though.

perispomenon
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I'm inclined to go with the pair á½‘Î¼á¿–Î½ Î¼á½³Î½... á¼￾á½º Î´â€™.

However, some editors read Î»á½»Ï…ÏƒÎ±Î¹Ï„Îµ for Î»á¿¦ÏƒÎ±á½· Ï„Îµ. This leads to a pair of clauses with optatives, and the resulting parallelism might point more at your option (2).
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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IreneY wrote:Hmmm

I am afraid I got a bit confused about what you mean about no finitive verb etc.
It would not be fair if I am the only confused one so now I feel I have good company
IreneY wrote:There's no need to repeat the verb since it is easy to understand what it is by context (DOIEN)

What I meant is this; In the case of me/n de/ being "may he grant this AND may he grant that," Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½ has to refer to both clauses, but Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½ is part of the me/n clause. Would that not mean that it is part of the contrast? If I had to compose this in Greek I would have something like; Î¸ÎµÎ¿á½¶ Î´Î¿á¿–Î½ á¼¡Î¼á¿–Î½ Î¼á½²Î½ á¼￾ÎºÏ€á½³Ï￾ÏƒÎ±Î¹ Î Ï￾Î¹á½±Î¼Î¿Î¹Î¿ Ï€á½¹Î»Î¹Î½, á¼￾á½º Î´' Î¿á¼´ÎºÎ±Î´' á¼±Îºá½³ÏƒÎ¸Î±Î¹.
In other words, may the gods give... would be outside the me/n de/ pair.
May the gods grant, on the one hand for you to sack the city and on the other hand for you to return home.
With Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½ coming after me/n I would be looking for another verb in the second clause.
perispomenon wrote: but it seems strange to me to say 'may the gods grant you to free my daughter'. The Achaeans are free to decide for themselves to do that, I would think.

With that option, Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½ would be complemented by the infinitives (to sack and to arrive) but it would not belong to "freeing my daughter."
So the pair would be either " May they give this to you AND that to you," or it would be "May they give this and that to you, And you do this and that for me."

Part of my original question has not been addressed yet.
Pharr says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?
Bert
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Bert wrote:With Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½ coming after me/n I would be looking for another verb in the second clause.

Ahh. While Î¼á½³Î½ often does follow words to which attention seems to be directed, it and Î´á½³ may refer rather to the entire clauses in which they appear (Smyth 2915).

Pharr says that the two infinitives in the second DE/ clause are used as imperatives. Does that mean that the sentence does not need a finite verb because the infinitives take its place?

Yes, but.

I'd say that it's often tough to make a firm distinction between clause and sentence in Homer. In comparing texts I find editors often differ among themselves on whether to us a comma, a period or a raised-dot. Î»á¿¦ÏƒÎ±Î¹ might just as well be taken to complement Î´Î¿á¿–ÎµÎ½, too. Well, maybe that's a stretch, but I think it's not completely indefensible.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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Ah!! Now I see the light (took me a while).

I'm afraid I cannot add anything to what annis has already said

IreneY
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Interesting.

I've always read this passage according to Bert's 2nd choice. But my reason for this reading is not based chiefly on syntax or morphology. Rather, I detect a meaningful contrast in the analogy gods:heros::heros:"regular men". So it is quite natural for me to locate the Î¼á½³Î½ / Î´á½³ contrast along the lines of "as the gods give you, may you give me."

I construe the first Î´á½³ in á¼￾á½º Î´'Î¿á¼´ÎºÎ±Î´' á¼±Îºá½³ÏƒÎ¸Î±Î¹Î‡ as merely continuative.

-Paul

Paul
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Paul wrote:I detect a meaningful contrast in the analogy gods:heros::heros:"regular men". So it is quite natural for me to locate the Î¼á½³Î½ / Î´á½³ contrast along the lines of "as the gods give you, may you give me."

Could it even be a simpler contrast, as if Chryses is implying "I really hope you get what you want (Î¼á½³Î½) and that I get what I want (Î´á½³)?"

Chris
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae

cdm2003
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cdm2003 wrote:Could it even be a simpler contrast, as if Chryses is implying "I really hope you get what you want (Î¼á½³Î½) and that I get what I want (Î´á½³)?" Chris

Sure. That seems quite reasonable to me.
-pb

Paul
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