Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Are you reading Homeric Greek? Whether you are a total beginner or an advanced Homerist, here you can meet kindred spirits. Besides Homer, use this board for all things early Greek poetry.
Post Reply
huilen
Textkit Member
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:19 pm
Location: Argentina

Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Post by huilen »

Hello everybody, I hope you can help me with these questions that I've being accumulating on my notes. Thanks for the help, as always.
  1. Book 15

  2. εὗρε δὲ Τηλέμαχον καὶ Νέστορος ἀγλαὸν υἱὸν
    5. εὕδοντ᾽ ἐν προδόμῳ Μενελάου κυδαλίμοιο,
    ἦ τοι Νεστορίδην μαλακῷ δεδμημένον ὕπνῳ:
    Merry says:
    There is an apparent contradiction: ‘she found both sleeping... but
    Telemachus was not sleeping.’ It may remind us of the famous
    contradiction about Zeus, between Il.1. 611 and 2. 2. In both places
    the difficulty lies in the epic style of narration.
    But I don't see that the text should imply that she found *both*
    sleeping, but just Antilochus (εὕδοντ᾽ = acc. singular).

  3. 160. ὣς ἄρα οἱ εἰπόντι ἐπέπτατο δεξιὸς ὄρνις,
    αἰετὸς ἀργὴν χῆνα φέρων ὀνύχεσσι πέλωρον,
    ἥμερον ἐξ αὐλῆς: οἱ δ᾽ ἰΰζοντες ἕποντο
    ἀνέρες ἠδὲ γυναῖκες: ὁ δέ σφισιν ἐγγύθεν ἐλθὼν
    δεξιὸς ἤϊξε πρόσθ᾽ ἵππων: οἱ δὲ ἰδόντες
    165. γήθησαν, καὶ πᾶσιν ἐνὶ φρεσὶ θυμὸς ἰάνθη.
    This portent happened just the moment after Telemachus uttered to
    Nestor his wish of finding his father. I don't see why is there the
    pluperfect ἐπέπτατο, instead of an inchoative imperfect. (But I know Paul
    will have some use of the pluperfect for here that will make me happy :)).

  4. 214. κεχολώσεται

    I don't remember any other case of reduplication in a future tense.
  5. νῆσός τις Συρίη κικλήσκεται, εἴ που ἀκούεις,
    Ὀρτυγίης καθύπερθεν, ὅθι τροπαὶ ἠελίοιο,
    405. οὔ τι περιπληθὴς λίην τόσον, ἀλλ᾽ ἀγαθὴ μέν,
    εὔβοτος, εὔμηλος, οἰνοπληθής, πολύπυρος.
    Should I read τόσον as an adverb?
  6. ‘ὑμεῖς μὲν νῦν ἄστυδ᾽ ἐλαύνετε νῆα μέλαιναν,
    αὐτὰρ ἐγὼν ἀγροὺς ἐπιείσομαι ἠδὲ βοτῆρας:
    505. ἑσπέριος δ᾽ εἰς ἄστυ ἰδὼν ἐμὰ ἔργα κάτειμι.
    ἠῶθεν δέ κεν ὔμμιν ὁδοιπόριον παραθείμην,
    δαῖτ᾽ ἀγαθὴν κρειῶν τε καὶ οἴνου ἡδυπότοιο.’
    I'd expect the future instead of the optative here.

    Book 16
    μητρὶ δ᾽ ἐμῇ δίχα θυμὸς ἐνὶ φρεσὶ μερμηρίζει,
    ἢ αὐτοῦ παρ᾽ ἐμοί τε μένῃ καὶ δῶμα κομίζῃ,
    75. εὐνήν τ᾽ αἰδομένη πόσιος δήμοιό τε φῆμιν,
    ἦ ἤδη ἅμ᾽ ἕπηται Ἀχαιῶν ὅς τις ἄριστος
    μνᾶται ἐνὶ μεγάροισιν ἀνὴρ καὶ πλεῖστα πόρῃσιν.
    Look! Another questioning of Penelope's moral!
  7. βουλοίμην κ᾽ ἐν ἐμοῖσι κατακτάμενος μεγάροισι
    τεθνάμεν ἢ τάδε γ᾽ αἰὲν ἀεικέα ἔργ᾽ ὁράασθαι,
    ξείνους τε στυφελιζομένους δμῳάς τε γυναῖκας
    ῥυστάζοντας ἀεικελίως κατὰ δώματα καλά,
    110. καὶ οἶνον διαφυσσόμενον, καὶ σῖτον ἔδοντας
    μὰψ αὔτως, ἀτέλεστον, ἀνηνύστῳ ἐπὶ ἔργῳ.
    How it is used ἐπὶ in ἀνηνύστῳ ἐπὶ ἔργῳ?
  8. ἡ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἐπ᾽ ὀφρύσι νεῦσε: νόησε δὲ δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς,
    Again, I don't get the meaning of ἐπὶ here.
  9. ἦ καὶ χρυσείῃ ῥάβδῳ ἐπεμάσσατ᾽ Ἀθήνη.
    φᾶρος μέν οἱ πρῶτον ἐϋπλυνὲς ἠδὲ χιτῶνα
    θῆκ᾽ ἀμφὶ στήθεσσι, δέμας δ᾽ ὤφελλε καὶ ἥβην.
    175. ἂψ δὲ μελαγχροιὴς γένετο, γναθμοὶ δὲ τάνυσθεν,
    κυάνεαι δ᾽ ἐγένοντο γενειάδες ἀμφὶ γένειον
    .
    That was the transformation of Odysseus by Athena before seeing his
    son. Merry says:
    κυάνεαι must mean ‘dark.’ The poet forgets that Ulysses had
    ‘yellow’ hair before: see Od.13. 399 Od., 431.
    But I don't see the contradiction. I have taken κυάνεαι as a
    predicative adjective: taking it so, his beards were not κυάνεαι
    before, but Athena made them κυάνεαι (she was dressing him up
    to look like a god).
  10. ἡ μὲν ἄρ᾽ ὣς ἔρξασα πάλιν κίεν: αὐτὰρ Ὀδυσσεὺς
    ἤϊεν ἐς κλισίην: θάμβησε δέ μιν φίλος υἱός,
    ταρβήσας δ᾽ ἑτέρωσε βάλ᾽ ὄμματα, μὴ θεὸς εἴη,
    180. καί μιν φωνήσας ἔπεα πτερόεντα προσηύδα:
    Why has Telemachus reacted in that way when he saw his father
    disguised as a god? Is it because of the ancient fear fo seeing a god,
    I suppose? But Odysseus didn't react in that way when he saw
    Athena for the first time. Was it because of his κυάνεαι γενειάδες? :P
  11. 186. τὸν δ᾽ ἠμείβετ᾽ ἔπειτα πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς:
    ‘οὔ τίς τοι θεός εἰμι: τί μ᾽ ἀθανάτοισιν ἐΐσκεις;
    ἀλλὰ πατὴρ τεός εἰμι, τοῦ εἵνεκα σὺ στεναχίζων
    πάσχεις ἄλγεα πολλά, βίας ὑποδέγμενος ἀνδρῶν.’
    Which was the purpose of Athena transforming Odysseus with the
    appearance of a god, if immediatly then he revealed his identity to his?
    Am I missing something here?
  12. εἰ δέ μ᾽ ἀτιμήσουσι δόμον κάτα, σὸν δὲ φίλον κῆρ
    275. τετλάτω ἐν στήθεσσι κακῶς πάσχοντος ἐμεῖο,
    ἤν περ καὶ διὰ δῶμα ποδῶν ἕλκωσι θύραζε
    ἢ βέλεσι βάλλωσι: σὺ δ᾽ εἰσορόων ἀνέχεσθαι.
    ἀλλ᾽ ἦ τοι παύεσθαι ἀνωγέμεν ἀφροσυνάων,
    μειλιχίοις ἐπέεσσι παραυδῶν: οἱ δέ τοι οὔ τι
    280. πείσονται: δὴ γάρ σφι παρίσταται αἴσιμον ἦμαρ.
    Odysseus orders Telemachus to not confront the suitors in the case
    that they throw him out of his house. I don't get the meaning of the
    last verse: what explains γάρ?
  13. ἀλλ᾽ ἦ τοί σε γυναῖκας ἐγὼ δεδάασθαι ἄνωγα,
    αἵ τέ σ᾽ ἀτιμάζουσι καὶ αἳ νηλείτιδές εἰσιν:
    ἀνδρῶν δ᾽ οὐκ ἂν ἐγώ γε κατὰ σταθμοὺς ἐθέλοιμι
    ἡμέας πειράζειν, ἀλλ᾽ ὕστερα ταῦτα πένεσθαι,
    320. εἰ ἐτεόν γέ τι οἶσθα Διὸς τέρας αἰγιόχοιο.’
    Telemachus says to his father that he should evaluate the fidelity of
    the women of the house. But he proposes something different for men, which
    I don't understand: ἀλλ᾽ ὕστερα ταῦτα πένεσθαι. Is he referring to
    the suitors?

    Book 17
  14. ὣς ἄρ᾽ ἐφώνησεν, τῇ δ᾽ ἄπτερος ἔπλετο μῦθος.
    ἡ δ᾽ ὑδρηναμένη, καθαρὰ χροῒ εἵμαθ᾽ ἑλοῦσα,
    εὔχετο πᾶσι θεοῖσι τεληέσσας ἑκατόμβας
    60. ῥέξειν, αἴ κέ ποθι Ζεὺς ἄντιτα ἔργα τελέσσῃ.
    [Context: Telemachus has just given Penelope the order of making a
    sacrifice to Zeus.]

    How do you understand the use of ἄπτερος μῦθος? It seems the opposite
    of ἔπεα πτερόεντα, but I don't know what it means that curious
    expression neither, so...
  15. 218. ὡς αἰεὶ τὸν ὁμοῖον ἄγει θεὸς ὡς τὸν ὁμοῖν
    I understand the meaning as a whole, but I don't know what to do with
    the second ὡς.
  16. ὃς πολλῇς φλιῇσι παραστὰς θλίψεται ὤμους,
    222. αἰτίζων ἀκόλους, οὐκ ἄορας οὐδὲ λέβητας
    Thus ends the description made by the goat-herd of Odysseus which
    renders his master as an undesirable beggar. I don't understand that
    of "asking for ἀκόλους instead of ἄορας or λέβητας". Why he should ask
    for swords or basins?

    I suspect that swords and basins are objects that would allow him to
    earn money by himself? Because he says just below:
    ἀλλ᾽ ἐπεὶ οὖν δὴ ἔργα κάκ᾽ ἔμμαθεν, οὐκ ἐθελήσει
    ἔργον ἐποίχεσθαι[...]

  17. 248. ‘ὢ πόποι, οἶον ἔειπε κύων ὀλοφώϊα εἰδώς,
    [Context: the insolent goat-herd answering to Odysseus (which is by the
    moment just a beggar for him, of course).]

    I don't know if this is a typo in my edition, but should not be οἷον?
    I am reading it as "How this dog talks!".

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... card%3D247

  18. Εὔμαι᾽, ἦ μάλα δὴ τάδε δώματα κάλ᾽ Ὀδυσῆος,
    265. ῥεῖα δ᾽ ἀρίγνωτ᾽ ἐστὶ καὶ ἐν πολλοῖσιν ἰδέσθαι.
    ἐξ ἑτέρων ἕτερ᾽ ἐστίν, ἐπήσκηται δέ οἱ αὐλὴ
    τοίχῳ καὶ θριγκοῖσι, θύραι δ᾽ εὐερκέες εἰσὶ
    δικλίδες: οὐκ ἄν τίς μιν ἀνὴρ ὑπεροπλίσσαιτο.
    How do you take ἐξ ἑτέρων ἕτερ᾽ ἐστίν in this description of the house
    of Odysseus? "One after another"? One after another what? Which would
    be the antecedent?
  19. 362. ὤτρυν᾽, ὡς ἂν πύρνα κατὰ μνηστῆρας ἀγείροι,
    γνοίη θ᾽ οἵ τινές εἰσιν ἐναίσιμοι οἵ τ᾽ ἀθέμιστοι:
    γνοίη...ἀθέμιστοι is an indirect clause depending on ὤτρυν᾽, so I
    would expect that εἰσιν should be in the past, since the main verb is
    in the past and the verb of the indirect clause in the optative mode.

  20. 400. δός οἱ ἑλών: οὔ τοι φθονέω: κέλομαι γὰρ ἐγώ γε
    [Telemachus biding Antinous to share the food with the
    beggar/Odysseus.]

    I have this question about the use of the participle on imperative
    sentences: should I take the participle as part of the order given
    ("Take it from me and give it to him") or should I take it as
    establishing a fact ("Since you have take it [from me], then share it
    with him now"). Does it depends of the context, I suppose?

    Book 18
  21. 130. οὐδὲν ἀκιδνότερον γαῖα τρέφει ἀνθρώποιο,
    πάντων ὅσσα τε γαῖαν ἔπι πνείει τε καὶ ἕρπει.
    οὐ μὲν γάρ ποτέ φησι κακὸν πείσεσθαι ὀπίσσω,
    ὄφρ᾽ ἀρετὴν παρέχωσι θεοὶ καὶ γούνατ᾽ ὀρώρῃ:
    How should I read ὀρώρῃ here (with the knees as the subject)?
  22. ‘δμῳαὶ Ὀδυσσῆος, δὴν οἰχομένοιο ἄνακτος,
    ἔρχεσθε πρὸς δώμαθ᾽, ἵν᾽ αἰδοίη βασίλεια:
    315. τῇ δὲ παρ᾽ ἠλάκατα στροφαλίζετε, τέρπετε δ᾽ αὐτὴν
    ἥμεναι ἐν μεγάρῳ, ἢ εἴρια πείκετε χερσίν:
    αὐτὰρ ἐγὼ τούτοισι φάος πάντεσσι παρέξω.
    ἤν περ γάρ κ᾽ ἐθέλωσιν ἐΰθρονον Ἠῶ μίμνειν,
    οὔ τί με νικήσουσι: πολυτλήμων δὲ μάλ᾽ εἰμί.’
    320. ὣς ἔφαθ᾽, αἱ δ᾽ ἐγέλασσαν, ἐς ἀλλήλας δὲ ἴδοντο.
    [αἱ = the dmwai]

    But why they laughed? I don't know if I'm missing something here, I
    didn't understand neither why Odysseus was wanting to carry the
    torches himself.
  23. βὰν δ᾽ ἴμεναι διὰ δῶμα, λύθεν δ᾽ ὑπὸ γυῖα ἑκάστης
    ταρβοσύνῃ: φὰν γάρ μιν ἀληθέα μυθήσασθαι.
    αὐτὰρ ὁ πὰρ λαμπτῆρσι φαείνων αἰθομένοισιν
    ἑστήκειν ἐς πάντας ὁρώμενος: ἄλλα δέ οἱ κῆρ
    345. ὥρμαινε φρεσὶν ᾗσιν, ἅ ῥ᾽ οὐκ ἀτέλεστα γένοντο.
    Why ἑστήκειν is infinitive? Is it because it goes with βὰν (as
    ἴμεναι)? It would surprise me, because both verbs are very far from
    each other and there is also a sentence between them (I have always see the infinitive
    accompanying bainw very close).
    ἀλλ᾽ εὖ δαισάμενοι κατακείετε οἴκαδ᾽ ἰόντες,
    ὁππότε θυμὸς ἄνωγε: διώκω δ᾽ οὔ τιν᾽ ἐγώ γε.’
    Could διώκω have being used by Telemachus in a double sense? I suppose
    that since this is a courteous invitation to leave his house, it
    should mean "I will not press you [to go]". But, since he is talking
    to the suitors, I would not surprise if he is really saying "I will
    not pursue you [to bring you back]". Both senses are valid for διώκω,
    or am I wrong?
Last edited by huilen on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Post by Paul Derouda »

Hello again, huilen! Let me begin with book 15...
huilen wrote:Hello everybody, I hope you can help me with these questions that I've being accumulating on my notes. Thanks for the help, as always.
  1. Book 15

  2. εὗρε δὲ Τηλέμαχον καὶ Νέστορος ἀγλαὸν υἱὸν
    5. εὕδοντ᾽ ἐν προδόμῳ Μενελάου κυδαλίμοιο,
    ἦ τοι Νεστορίδην μαλακῷ δεδμημένον ὕπνῳ:
    Merry says:
    There is an apparent contradiction: ‘she found both sleeping... but
    Telemachus was not sleeping.’ It may remind us of the famous
    contradiction about Zeus, between Il.1. 611 and 2. 2. In both places
    the difficulty lies in the epic style of narration.
    But I don't see that the text should imply that she found *both*
    sleeping, but just Antilochus (εὕδοντ᾽ = acc. singular).
You're technically right, but I think it's regular in Homer that in this sort of situation a participle or adjective might be "attracted" to the number of the the word that comes closest. Thus, εὕδοντ᾽ would still normally mean both Telemachus and Peisistratus.


[*]
160. ὣς ἄρα οἱ εἰπόντι ἐπέπτατο δεξιὸς ὄρνις,
αἰετὸς ἀργὴν χῆνα φέρων ὀνύχεσσι πέλωρον,
ἥμερον ἐξ αὐλῆς: οἱ δ᾽ ἰΰζοντες ἕποντο
ἀνέρες ἠδὲ γυναῖκες: ὁ δέ σφισιν ἐγγύθεν ἐλθὼν
δεξιὸς ἤϊξε πρόσθ᾽ ἵππων: οἱ δὲ ἰδόντες
165. γήθησαν, καὶ πᾶσιν ἐνὶ φρεσὶ θυμὸς ἰάνθη.
This portent happened just the moment after Telemachus uttered to
Nestor his wish of finding his father. I don't see why is there the
pluperfect ἐπέπτατο, instead of an inchoative imperfect. (But I know Paul
will have some use of the pluperfect for here that will make me happy :)).
I don't think it's a pluperfect (although Perseus apparently does), but rather an aorist of ἐπιπέτομαι.

[*]

214. κεχολώσεται

I don't remember any other case of reduplication in a future tense.
It's a future perfect. A perfect is a state resulting from a preceding event or action, so a future perfect is a state situated in the future that results from a preceding event or action. "Will be angry". Perfect, because to BE angry you first have GET angry.
[*]
νῆσός τις Συρίη κικλήσκεται, εἴ που ἀκούεις,
Ὀρτυγίης καθύπερθεν, ὅθι τροπαὶ ἠελίοιο,
405. οὔ τι περιπληθὴς λίην τόσον, ἀλλ᾽ ἀγαθὴ μέν,
εὔβοτος, εὔμηλος, οἰνοπληθής, πολύπυρος.
Should I read τόσον as an adverb?
Yes.
[*]
‘ὑμεῖς μὲν νῦν ἄστυδ᾽ ἐλαύνετε νῆα μέλαιναν,
αὐτὰρ ἐγὼν ἀγροὺς ἐπιείσομαι ἠδὲ βοτῆρας:
505. ἑσπέριος δ᾽ εἰς ἄστυ ἰδὼν ἐμὰ ἔργα κάτειμι.
ἠῶθεν δέ κεν ὔμμιν ὁδοιπόριον παραθείμην,
δαῖτ᾽ ἀγαθὴν κρειῶν τε καὶ οἴνου ἡδυπότοιο.’
I'd expect the future instead of the optative here.
I think it's a matter of politeness. "Tomorrow I would like to offer you a reward for the journey (or whatever ὁδοιπόριον means)"

Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Post by Qimmik »

400. δός οἱ ἑλών: οὔ τοι φθονέω: κέλομαι γὰρ ἐγώ γε


[Telemachus biding Antinous to share the food with the
beggar/Odysseus.]

I have this question about the use of the participle on imperative
sentences: should I take the participle as part of the order given
("Take it from me and give it to him") or should I take it as
establishing a fact ("Since you have take it [from me], then share it
with him now"). Does it depends of the context, I suppose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe

Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Post by Qimmik »

22.
αὐτὰρ ὁ πὰρ λαμπτῆρσι φαείνων αἰθομένοισιν
ἑστήκειν ἐς πάντας ὁρώμενος:

Why ἑστήκειν is infinitive?
Not infinitive. Pluperfect.
ἡ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἐπ᾽ ὀφρύσι νεῦσε: νόησε δὲ δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς,

Again, I don't get the meaning of ἐπὶ here
ἐπὶ is a verbal prefix, not a preposition.

= ἐπένευσε

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Post by Paul Derouda »

huilen wrote:Book 16
μητρὶ δ᾽ ἐμῇ δίχα θυμὸς ἐνὶ φρεσὶ μερμηρίζει,
ἢ αὐτοῦ παρ᾽ ἐμοί τε μένῃ καὶ δῶμα κομίζῃ,
75. εὐνήν τ᾽ αἰδομένη πόσιος δήμοιό τε φῆμιν,
ἦ ἤδη ἅμ᾽ ἕπηται Ἀχαιῶν ὅς τις ἄριστος
μνᾶται ἐνὶ μεγάροισιν ἀνὴρ καὶ πλεῖστα πόρῃσιν.
Look! Another questioning of Penelope's moral!
Yes. Penelope doesn't seem to be always described consistently. We wonder whether this is some psychological finesse by Homer (this displays Telemachus' feelings at the moment of speaking), or whether Homer just didn't pay attention. The old analysts claimed that it's because different passages had different authors.
[*]
βουλοίμην κ᾽ ἐν ἐμοῖσι κατακτάμενος μεγάροισι
τεθνάμεν ἢ τάδε γ᾽ αἰὲν ἀεικέα ἔργ᾽ ὁράασθαι,
ξείνους τε στυφελιζομένους δμῳάς τε γυναῖκας
ῥυστάζοντας ἀεικελίως κατὰ δώματα καλά,
110. καὶ οἶνον διαφυσσόμενον, καὶ σῖτον ἔδοντας
μὰψ αὔτως, ἀτέλεστον, ἀνηνύστῳ ἐπὶ ἔργῳ.
How it is used ἐπὶ in ἀνηνύστῳ ἐπὶ ἔργῳ?
"on a business that will never be done", according to the Oxford commentary. The suitors are never going to bring their feasting to an end. Monro explains differently, "with no end to the business", where ἐπὶ = "with, in presence of"; ἀνηνύστῳ ἐπὶ ἔργῳ would then explain ἀτέλεστον.
[/quote]
[*]
ἡ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἐπ᾽ ὀφρύσι νεῦσε: νόησε δὲ δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς,
Again, I don't get the meaning of ἐπὶ here.
[/quote]
I think it's ἐπινεύω in tmesis.
[*]
ἦ καὶ χρυσείῃ ῥάβδῳ ἐπεμάσσατ᾽ Ἀθήνη.
φᾶρος μέν οἱ πρῶτον ἐϋπλυνὲς ἠδὲ χιτῶνα
θῆκ᾽ ἀμφὶ στήθεσσι, δέμας δ᾽ ὤφελλε καὶ ἥβην.
175. ἂψ δὲ μελαγχροιὴς γένετο, γναθμοὶ δὲ τάνυσθεν,
κυάνεαι δ᾽ ἐγένοντο γενειάδες ἀμφὶ γένειον
.
That was the transformation of Odysseus by Athena before seeing his
son. Merry says:
κυάνεαι must mean ‘dark.’ The poet forgets that Ulysses had
‘yellow’ hair before: see Od.13. 399 Od., 431.
But I don't see the contradiction. I have taken κυάνεαι as a
predicative adjective: taking it so, his beards were not κυάνεαι
before, but Athena made them κυάνεαι (she was dressing him up
to look like a god).
I don't see the contradiction either. First of all, ξανθός probably doesn't mean "yellow" but "brown, tawny". I think brown hair can be called dark, no? And anyway, the point is that Odysseus hair had been turned gray by Athena (if I remember the story correctly), and now she gives him back his youthful beard color - dark is meant as an opposition to gray. And anyway, I don't think the Greek color terms map quite the same way as ours do.
[*]
ἡ μὲν ἄρ᾽ ὣς ἔρξασα πάλιν κίεν: αὐτὰρ Ὀδυσσεὺς
ἤϊεν ἐς κλισίην: θάμβησε δέ μιν φίλος υἱός,
ταρβήσας δ᾽ ἑτέρωσε βάλ᾽ ὄμματα, μὴ θεὸς εἴη,
180. καί μιν φωνήσας ἔπεα πτερόεντα προσηύδα:
Why has Telemachus reacted in that way when he saw his father
disguised as a god? Is it because of the ancient fear fo seeing a god,
I suppose? But Odysseus didn't react in that way when he saw
Athena for the first time. Was it because of his κυάνεαι γενειάδες? :P

[*]
186. τὸν δ᾽ ἠμείβετ᾽ ἔπειτα πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς:
‘οὔ τίς τοι θεός εἰμι: τί μ᾽ ἀθανάτοισιν ἐΐσκεις;
ἀλλὰ πατὴρ τεός εἰμι, τοῦ εἵνεκα σὺ στεναχίζων
πάσχεις ἄλγεα πολλά, βίας ὑποδέγμενος ἀνδρῶν.’
Which was the purpose of Athena transforming Odysseus with the
appearance of a god, if immediatly then he revealed his identity to his?
Am I missing something here?
I suppose the point is to show how formidable Odysseus is. It makes us wait impatiently for the moment when the suitors get their just deserts.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Odyssey, Book 15, 16, 17 and 18

Post by mwh »

Picking up the residue:

11. 16.280 ἀλλ᾽ ἦ τοι παύεσθαι ἀνωγέμεν ἀφροσυνάων,
μειλιχίοις ἐπέεσσι παραυδῶν: οἱ δέ τοι οὔ τι
280. πείσονται: δὴ γάρ σφι παρίσταται αἴσιμον ἦμαρ.

γάρ is elliptical. It gives the reason not for the suitors’ anticipated refusal to listen to Tel, but more for Od’s prediction or confidence that they won’t. The poet allows Od this insight, instead of foretelling the outcome himself; the insight is later narratorially confirmed (17.364). Such foreshadowing is typically Homeric. The more important the event, the further ahead we’re told of it. (The oppositie of suspense.)
This elliptical use of γάρ is fairly common: “(I say this) because …”


12. ἀνδρῶν δ᾽ οὐκ ἂν ἐγώ γε κατὰ σταθμοὺς ἐθέλοιμι
ἡμέας πειράζειν, ἀλλ᾽ ὕστερα ταῦτα πένεσθαι,
320. εἰ ἐτεόν γέ τι οἶσθα Διὸς τέρας αἰγιόχοιο.’

Tel is suggesting that Od should deal with things in the palace (i.e. the suitors, and the disloyal women) before going around testing the loyalty of his workers outside in the palace grounds. He proposes that they “work at this later” (υστερα predicative). Tel knows the situation better than his father, and action is urgent. There are also considerations of plot, of course. (But there’s a good deal of narrative incoherence or inconsistency hereabouts.)


13. 17.57 ὣς ἄρ᾽ ἐφώνησεν, τῇ δ᾽ ἄπτερος ἔπλετο μῦθος.

An ancient puzzle. Scholars gave various interpretations, according as they took the α- as privative (negative) or intensive. Many words in α- were subject to a similar variety of interpretations.


14. 218. ὡς αἰεὶ τὸν ὁμοῖον ἄγει θεὸς ὡς τὸν ὁμοῖον

Another puzzle. With non-accentuation of the second ὡς it will mean “to” (“as god always brings like to like”, in accordance with 217 κακος κακον ἡγηλιζει). That’s how Plato took it, and most other exegetes, but this use of ὡς is otherwise non-Homeric. It’s odd.


15. 222. αἰτίζων ἀκόλους, οὐκ ἄορας οὐδὲ λέβητας
This continues the goatherd’s mockery. Swords and cauldrons (λεβητες are big bronze prestigious objects) are gifts suitable for a noble ξενος, not a wretch such as the pigman’s companion. It’s a sneer.

16. Yes.

17. Εὔμαι᾽, ἦ μάλα δὴ τάδε δώματα κάλ᾽ Ὀδυσῆος,
265. ῥεῖα δ᾽ ἀρίγνωτ᾽ ἐστὶ καὶ ἐν πολλοῖσιν ἰδέσθαι.
ἐξ ἑτέρων ἕτερ᾽ ἐστίν, ἐπήσκηται δέ οἱ αὐλὴ

Referring to Od’s δωματα. We’re to imagine added-on buildings, a set of extensions, one after the other.


18. 17.362. ὤτρυν᾽, ὡς ἂν πύρνα κατὰ μνηστῆρας ἀγείροι,
γνοίη θ᾽ οἵ τινές εἰσιν ἐναίσιμοι οἵ τ᾽ ἀθέμιστοι.

Verbs in secondary sequence sometimes take primary form. Some scholars think it’s more vivid.


19. 17.400. δός οἱ ἑλών: οὔ τοι φθονέω: κέλομαι γὰρ ἐγώ γε
“I have this question about the use of the participle on imperative
sentences: should I take the participle as part of the order given
("Take it from me and give it to him") or should I take it as
establishing a fact ("Since you have take it [from me], then share it
with him now"). Does it depends of the context, I suppose?”

Here, as normally, part of the imperative (“Take and give him”). But yes, more generally speaking it’s context alone that determines the force of participles (temporal, circumstantial, causal, concessive, whatever).


20. 18.132 οὐ μὲν γάρ ποτέ φησι κακὸν πείσεσθαι ὀπίσσω,
ὄφρ᾽ ἀρετὴν παρέχωσι θεοὶ καὶ γούνατ᾽ ὀρώρῃ:

“and his knees bestir themselves, rise, move” Intransitive use.


21. οὔ τί με νικήσουσι: πολυτλήμων δὲ μάλ᾽ εἰμί.’
320. ὣς ἔφαθ᾽, αἱ δ᾽ ἐγέλασσαν, ἐς ἀλλήλας δὲ ἴδοντο.


”But why they laughed? I don't know if I'm missing something here, I
didn't understand neither why Odysseus was wanting to carry the
torches himself.”

Laughing at him for not behaving as a beggar should? Cf. Melantho’s rebuke. And there’s the question of just what γελάω means.
As for Od himself tending the fire, he’s keeping up his act, but here he is home, at his hearth, in control. We know it, they don’t.


22. 344 αὐτὰρ ὁ πὰρ λαμπτῆρσι φαείνων αἰθομένοισιν
ἑστήκειν ἐς πάντας ὁρώμενος

Not infin., indic. εστηκειν = εστηκει, he stood, he was standing.

<23.> ἀλλ᾽ εὖ δαισάμενοι κατακείετε οἴκαδ᾽ ἰόντες,
ὁππότε θυμὸς ἄνωγε: διώκω δ᾽ οὔ τιν᾽ ἐγώ γε.’
“Could διώκω have being used by Telemachus in a double sense? I suppose
that since this is a courteous invitation to leave his house, it
should mean "I will not press you [to go]". But, since he is talking
to the suitors, I would not surprise if he is really saying "I will
not pursue you [to bring you back]". Both senses are valid for διώκω,
or am I wrong?”

No double meaning, I think. That’s not Homer’s way. It’s just amplifying the first half of the line, as the second half so often does. (δε almost = γαρ.)


The end approaches. You'll never get to read the Odyssey for the first time ever again!

Post Reply