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Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:13 pm
by Bart
ἦ μὲν δὴ λώβη τάδε γ᾽ ἔσσεται αἰνόθεν αἰνῶς
εἰ μή τις Δαναῶν νῦν Ἕκτορος ἀντίος εἶσιν.

I don't think I have seen this construction before: future indicative in the apodosis and present indicative in the protasis (with μή). It's almost a future most vivid construction (a rare occurence, I remember from Mastronarde), but then you would expect the future indicative in both protasis and apodosis.
Is it because of εἶσιν having a future connotation (in attic at least, not sure about epic Greek)?

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:08 am
by mwh
εἶσιν is here future, so you have future in both protasis and apodosis. Outside of epic the indicative is routinely future. In Homer it can be either future or present, acc. to context. Often it’s ambiguous (e.g. Achilles' ειμι).

As you’re aware, Mastronarde is not a guide to epic syntax, which can be significantly different (though not so much here). Among handy elementary guides, if I remember, is the intro to Stanford’s Odyssey.

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:56 pm
by Bart
So, it is a regular future most vivid conditional sentence. Thanks.

Out of curiosity I took my copy from Mastronarde from under the proverbial dust -man, it seems ages since I started learning Greek with it!- to look what exactly he has to tell about this kind of construction. I remembered correctly that he says it is rare, especially in prose, but more common in drama and poetry, where it is mostly used in emotional exclamations (If you do this, I'll kill you!). That seems to be the context here too.

First time I meet this syntactical beast in the flesh, so to say. Nice.

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:48 am
by iouchiza
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could accurately translate the following passage from book 10 of the Iliad into the Greek script for me, it would be much appreciated.

'Athena winged a heron close to their path
And veering right. Neither man could see it
Scanning the night sky, they only heard its cry.'

Thank you. (=

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:26 pm
by pdebnar
The line between the future and subjunctive in Homeric Greek is often fuzzy. Monro in Homeric Grammar states, "In clauses with εἰ the Future [i.e., without κε /κεν] is chiefly used of events regarded as necessary, or as determined by some power independent of the speaker." I think you could say that it is necessary that someone oppose Hector!

εἰ with the future appears in Attic, too; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar calls it the "emotional future," although he does not mark it as Homeric/epic in particular. In Mastronard (p. 261) it is called the "Future Most Vivid."

Stanford's short introduction to Homeric syntax, by the way, isn't much help.

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:42 pm
by Paul Derouda
The verses seem to be Il. 10.274-276 (taken from TLG):

τοῖσι δὲ δεξιὸν ἧκεν ἐρωδιὸν ἐγγὺς ὁδοῖο
Παλλὰς Ἀθηναίη· τοὶ δ’ οὐκ ἴδον ὀφθαλμοῖσι
νύκτα δι’ ὀρφναίην, ἀλλὰ κλάγξαντος ἄκουσαν.

What English translation is that?

Btw, it's usually a good idea to start a new thread for a new subject.

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:14 am
by iouchiza
@Paul,

Thanks so much for your help, yeah sorry i'm new to this website and was unsure how to go about posting. (Whoops).

The English translation is by Robert Fagles, and by so far is my favourite translation. :)
I've asked this question to a university professor along with posting on Greek speaking forums just to make sure i get accuracy with the translation, since i virtually know nothing about the Greek language and she gave me this response:

Δεξιά του δρόμου ερωδιόν τους έστειλε σιμά τους η Αθηνά,
και το πουλί τα μάτια τους δεν είδαν εις το σκοτάδι,
αλλ’ άκουσαν τον ήχον της φωνής του

I am a little confused with the different variations, and am unsure which one to go with.. If you could compare and let me know which one is more accurate, it would mean a lot.

Thank you!

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:48 am
by Qimmik
Δεξιά του δρόμου ερωδιόν τους έστειλε σιμά τους η Αθηνά,
και το πουλί τα μάτια τους δεν είδαν εις το σκοτάδι,
αλλ’ άκουσαν τον ήχον της φωνής του

This is a modern Greek translation.

Re: Iliad 7, 97-98

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:01 am
by iouchiza
@Qimmik

Cheers for that :)