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Od. 7. 21-60

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Od. 7. 21-60

Postby huilen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:46 am

Od. 7. 21 wrote:ἀνείρετο

(Don't worry, it is not about the imperfect of this verb that I will ask about :)). Here is my doubt: in tmesis or in composed verbs, ἀνα adds the notion of either "up" or "again". Right? I am not sure, then, how ἀνα modifies the sense of εἴρομαι. "Ask again"? But "ask again" wouldn't have sense here, because Odysseus is addressing Athena in the form of a young maiden whom he is supposed to see for the first time.

Od. 7. 30-31 wrote:ἀλλ᾽ ἴθι σιγῇ τοῖον, ἐγὼ δ᾽ ὁδὸν ἡγεμονεύσω,
μηδέ τιν᾽ ἀνθρώπων προτιόσσεο μηδ᾽ ἐρέεινε.

Geoffrey Steadman's notes say that τοῖον is an adverb here, but I always understand this word as a comparative one that requires an antecedent, and here I don't see the antecedent. Is somekind of anacoluthon? "Go in such silence...".

Od. 7. 48-49 wrote:οὗτος δή τοι, ξεῖνε πάτερ, δόμος, ὅν με κελεύεις
πεφραδέμεν

I wandered why is this infinitive in the perfect tense, and I found that Smyth says this about indirect discourse:
"Smyth #2019 wrote: Each tense of direct discourse is retained (with its proper meaning as regards stage of action) when it becomes infinitive in indirect discourse; but an imperfect is represented by the present infinitive; a pluperfect, by the perfect infinitive.

But I would like to confirm if this is the right explanation.
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Re: Od. 7. 21-60

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:23 pm

1. ἀνείρετο --Some compound verbs can be analyzed by breaking them down between the preverb and the basic verb, but in many cases, the preverb and verb can't be broken down this way. Homeric ἀνείρομαι just means "ask."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da%29nei%2Fromai

Compare Latin requiro, from re+quaero, which can just mean "ask" without any implication of repetition.

Odi et amo. quare id faciam fortasse requiris?
nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.

2. τοῖον -- this is a kind of idiomatic usage. From LSJ τοῖος:

V. neut. τοῖον as Adv., thus, so much, “τοῖον γὰρ ὑποτρομέουσι” Il.22.241, cf. Od.3.496; θάμα τ. ever so often, 1.209; “ἀλλ᾽ ἴθι σιγῇ τ.” 7.30, cf. 4.776: in later Ep. τοίως, Theoc.24.72 codd., A.R.3.1399.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtoi%3Dos

Maybe this is a little like French donc with an imperative: Mais vas donc en silence.

3. πεφραδέμεν -- this is actually second aorist, not perfect. The perfect infinitive ending would be -έναι.

Again, LSJ φράζω:

Ep. aor. πέφρα^δον, ἐπέφραδον used by Hom. mostly in 3sg., Il.14.500, al. (in Od.1.273, 8.142, πέφραδε is imper.); opt. “πεφράδοι” Il.14.335; inf. πεφραδέειν, πεφραδέμεν, Od.19.477, 7.49; 1sg. ἐπέφραδον only Il.10.127


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfra%2Fzw

See Smyth 494:

Reduplication.—The verb-stem may be reduplicated.

a. In the present with ι: γι-γνώ-σκω (γνω-) know, τί-θη-μι place, ἵ-στη-μι set, δί-δω-μι give. The present reduplication may be carried over to other tenses: διδά (κ) σκω teach (99), διδάξω. With ε: τε-τραίνω bore.

b. In the second aorist: ἄγω (ἀγ-) lead, ἤγ-αγ-ον; ἕπομαι follow, ἑσπόμην (for σε-σπ-ομην).

c. Regularly with ε in the perfect.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+494&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

Smyth 448D:

Hom. has many reduplicated second aorists, as πέ-πιθον from πείθω (πιθ-) persuade, κεκλόμην, κε-κλόμενος from κέλομαι command, λε-λαθέσθαι from λανθάνω (λαθ-) escape the notice of, πε-φιδέσθαι from φείδομαι (φιδ-) spare, ἤρ-αρον from ἀραρίσκω (ἀρ-) join, ὤρ-ορον from ὄρνυ_μι arouse. The indicative forms may take the syllabic augment, as in ἐ-πέ-φραδον from φράζω (φραδ-) tell. From ἐνίπτω chide and ἐρύ_κω check come ἠνί_παπον and ἐνένι_πον, and ἠρύ_κακον.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007%3Asmythp%3D448%20D

Hope this helps.
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Re: Od. 7. 21-60

Postby huilen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:01 pm

Thanks, it helps a lot.

Qimmik wrote:3. πεφραδέμεν -- this is actually second aorist, not perfect. The perfect infinitive ending would be -έναι.

I think that there is a typo in my Geoffrey Steadman's edition, for the notes say:
Geoffrey Steadman wrote:49 περφραδέμεν: pf. inf. φράζω
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Re: Od. 7. 21-60

Postby Qimmik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:11 pm

It's not just a typo--it's an outright mistake.
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