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Iliad 2:768-769. Antecedent of O(

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Iliad 2:768-769. Antecedent of O(

Postby Bert » Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:58 am

[face=SPIonic]a)ndrw=n au)= me/g' a)/ristoj e)/hn Telamw/nioj Ai)/aj
o)/fr' )Axileu\j mh/nien: o(\ ga\r polu\ fe/rtatoj h)=en,
[/face]
When I read these two lines I understood O( to refer to Telamw/vioj.
Every 10-15 lines I check my understanding with an English translation.
This is how I found that O( refers to Achilles.
This makes perfect sense, but when you read Greek as slow as I do, it is hard to use context to determine something like this.
Is there some rule of thumb to determine the antecedent to a pronoun?
What pronoun should have been used if it did refer to Telamw/nioj?
Bert
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Re: Iliad 2:768-769. Antecedent of O(

Postby Paul » Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:17 am

Bert wrote:[face=SPIonic]a)ndrw=n au)= me/g' a)/ristoj e)/hn Telamw/nioj Ai)/aj
o)/fr' )Axileu\j mh/nien: o(\ ga\r polu\ fe/rtatoj h)=en,
[/face]

Is there some rule of thumb to determine the antecedent to a pronoun?
What pronoun should have been used if it did refer to Telamw/nioj?


Hi Bert,

Unless context dictates otherwise, I think it's safest to assume that this anaphoric use of the article refers to the person or thing just mentioned (cf. 1.9, 1.404, 1.581).

Sometimes context governs, as in 1.12.

Although [face=SPIonic]e)kei=noj[/face] is primarily deictic, it can also be used anaphorically. This pronoun would, I think, be used to denote the remoter (earlier in the text) antecedent.

But I think the context of 768-770 also makes clear that the 'article' refers to Achilles.

Cordially,

Paul
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Re: Iliad 2:768-769. Antecedent of O(

Postby Bert » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:14 pm

Paul wrote:
Unless context dictates otherwise, I think it's safest to assume that this anaphoric use of the article refers to the person or thing just mentioned (cf. 1.9, 1.404, 1.581).

Sometimes context governs, as in 1.12.

Although [face=SPIonic]e)kei=noj[/face] is primarily deictic, it can also be used anaphorically. This pronoun would, I think, be used to denote the remoter (earlier in the text) antecedent.

Hi Paul. I think I know what anaphoric means but I don't understand the comparison 'anaphoric vs deictic.'
Could you explain please?
Paul wrote:
But I think the context of 768-770 also makes clear that the 'article' refers to Achilles.



I agree. My problem is that when I read a pronoun, I assume who it refers to, and then I continue to read trying to understand the rest based on that assumption. When I come to something that doesn't click, I have already forgotten about my assumption waaay back 2 lines ago.
When my reading speed increases this should come more natural.
When reading an ambiguous sentence in English this happens at well, but I don't have to make an assumption. I just subconsciously keep this in the back of my mind untill the end of the sentence or the beginning of the next, where the referent becomes clear.
Just give me a couple of years and I'll do that in Greek (almost) as well.

Thanks.
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Postby Paul » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:46 pm

Hi Bert,

Both deictic and anaphoric pronouns are kinds of demonstratives; they point out and identify.

But while anaphoric demonstratives point to something 'near or far' in the text, deictic demonstratives point to something 'near or far' in the world, something physically present. (Anaphors may also be used by speakers to refer to something that is not physically present, that cannot be pointed to.)

Egbert Bakker wrote a useful article on this in Classical Philology 94 (1999): Homeric [face=SPIonic]ou(=toj[/face] and the Poetics of Deixis.

Cordially,

Paul
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