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Thucydides' Grand Summer Iliad Reading

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:27 pm
by Thucydides
This summer I'm going to read the whole Iliad in Greek. I have assembled a vast array of scholarly tomes to help me:

Monro's Commentary
Willcock's Commentary
Autenreith's Dictionary
Seymour's Grammar
Monro's Grammar
Iliad Loebs
EV Rieu's translation
Hammond's translation
Vocab lists for a lot of the books

Anything I'm missing? What's the Leaf commentary like for instance?
Are there any outstanding commentaries on particular books? (I hear MacCleod on 24 is very good).

At the moment I'm managing about 300-400 lines a day, so a book every two days or so. I'm dipping into the grammars regularly.

Any general advice? I'm not looking forward to the middle section (10-15 or so). But perhaps the Greek there'll be easy going.

I need to track down that Homeric Vocabularies book soon.

Thucy

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:25 pm
by Paul
Hi Thucy,

300-400 lines per day? I envy you your free time!

I'd replace Autenrieth with Cunliffe.

Cordially,

Paul

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:31 pm
by annis
Paul wrote:I'd replace Autenrieth with Cunliffe.


I strongly support this suggestion.

I don't think, if you're reading 100s of lines a day, you need the small Homeric Vocabulary. Simply by your reading you'll get a feel for what words you most need to know.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:14 am
by chad
Hi, I recently got Chantraine's Grammaire homérique (on Will's suggestion). If you can read French it's a lot easier to read than Monro and covers different things, e.g. the chapter on accentuation talks about the introduction of Ionic and Aeolic accentuation into specific words in the text, e.g. the recessive Aeolic accent in the shorter genitive and dative forms of ui(o/j; I don't remember Monro covering this aspect (but I'd have to check again) :)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:48 pm
by Thucydides
I am actually pretty impressed with Monro. He seems to give very clear explanations of things. No nuance of an inflection escapes his grasp.

I am also getting very annoyed with Autenrieth, who only seems to give the nom.sg./firstpersonsing when it actually appears in Homer.. otherwise you're left to fend for yourself. Cunliffe here I come then.

As for my free time - it's the long gap between leaving school and starting Oxford (grades permitting). Since term 1 is basically the Iliad, I thought I'd get ahead.

I plan to go even faster soon. I could theoretically do it all day long.

Re: Thucydides' Grand Summer Iliad Reading

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:38 pm
by Bert
Thucydides wrote:
At the moment I'm managing about 300-400 lines a day, so a book every two days or so.

When I can read 300-400 lines per day I'll sell my books. (Maybe not)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:48 pm
by Thucydides
Update!

Things are going well. I managed 600 lines for the first time today. I've got to book V, which is the first one I've read without a prepared vocab list. This makes it considerably slower, since it's often hard to identify what verb an obscure form comes from.

The passages I dread most are the technical ones where I have to look up almost every single word - descriptions of feasts in book I, or the intricate details of Pandarus shooting an arrow. Hopefully they'll crop up a few times so I'll get used to them.

Another thing: Homer is weird! The more I read the more bizarre forms I find: aorists in 'ka', reduplicated aorists, augmentless forms, sigmatic second aorists, stative verbs...

I understand now why Homer is traditionally considered to be at the heart of Greek language. Reading Homer forces you to learn lots about the history of Greek and to really know your forms (particularly) verbs inside out. In addition, I can often see vocabulary familiar from Attic in its earlier form.

My approach to Homeric Grammar is to use the brief Homeric Grammars at the beginning of Monro's Iliad Commentary (vol. I) and Stanford's Odyssey Commentary. These provide all I need without swamping me in detail.

I'm fast coming to think that reading texts intensively is the <i>only</i> way to read them. I hardly need to learn vocabulary, since I see the words so often that they just stick. I see so many Homeric irregularities a day that they just aren't that startling any more. Commentaries become superfluous.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:42 pm
by Adelheid
Thucydides wrote:Things are going well. I managed 600 lines for the first time today.


Hi Thucydides,

I was wondering; do you use any translation at all as a backup? In any case a wonderful achievement, 600 lines in one day. If only I could. Congratulations.

Regards,
Adelheid

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:45 pm
by Thucydides
I have a Loeb at hand always. I know some regard Loebs as shameful but my aim is to get through the Iliad once quickly; the chief requirement is to understand how the Greek fits together. Since Homeric Greek is generally easy in terms of sense, I don't feel I'm blunting my skills at reading Greek unseen.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:53 pm
by Adelheid
Thucydides wrote:I have a Loeb at hand always. I know some regard Loebs as shameful.


I surely don't! I myself use Butlers translation as an aid, but he sometimes leaves out rather large chunks. The important thing (for me) is to get the flow of the lines, and the meaning of some words.

Regards,
Adelheid

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:08 pm
by Thucydides
Adelheid wrote:The important thing (for me) is to get the flow of the lines,


Quite. As long as you understand the Greek, you can learn Homeric style passively.

The Loeb is also useful when I want to quickly check the meaning of an small epithet or something.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:45 am
by chad
hi thucydides, this prob. won't help you as you're racing ahead already, but if you draw in your book diagrams of the vocab-intensive scenes, with greek-only labels, they become much much easier to read and then re-read later.

e.g. for book 1, the 2 ship scenes, the sacrifice, the feast, zeus' body parts (i.e. when thetis is begging at his knees).

someone could do this and put it online but it's far more helpful if you do it yourself i think. :)

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:15 am
by Thucydides
Mmm... yes, thanks, that sounds like a good idea. I've found Autenrieth's Greek only diagram of a ship quite useful already.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:33 pm
by swiftnicholas
chad wrote:Hi, I recently got Chantraine's Grammaire homérique (on Will's suggestion). If you can read French it's a lot easier to read than Monro and covers different things, e.g. the chapter on accentuation talks about the introduction of Ionic and Aeolic accentuation into specific words in the text, e.g. the recessive Aeolic accent in the shorter genitive and dative forms of ui(o/j; I don't remember Monro covering this aspect (but I'd have to check again)


Where did you find Chantraine's grammar? I'm interested in getting it, but I've never found a copy. I sometimes photocopy pages from Cornell's library, but I can only get there once every month or two.

~Nicholas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:40 pm
by chad
hi swiftnicholas, yes i've only got it in photocopy as well: i.e. i've photocopied for myself the bits i wanted (in accordance with Aust copyright restrictions of course.).

thucydides, there's also a diagram of a ship here on textkit:

http://www.textkit.com/files/homeric_sh ... bulary.pdf

however i find drawing your own pictures specific to passages much more helpful, because e.g. in book 1, the different 'ship' scenes talk about different parts of the ship, &c. :)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:44 am
by Paul
swiftnicholas wrote:Where did you find Chantraine's grammar? I'm interested in getting it, but I've never found a copy. I sometimes photocopy pages from Cornell's library, but I can only get there once every month or two.

~Nicholas


Hi,

New copies of both Vol 1 and 2 are available from Librairie La Canopee in Canada. Here is a link for Vol2 (syntax):

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo ... =369623082

Cordially,

Paul

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:41 pm
by swiftnicholas
Cool. Thanks Paul.

I noticed that abebooks also offers both volumes in an older paperback edition for a tempting price. Do you think the book to which you linked is a paperback? It isn't designated "broché"; but a 2000 publication year suggests a paperback to me.

~Nicholas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:57 pm
by Paul
swiftnicholas wrote:Cool. Thanks Paul.

I noticed that abebooks also offers both volumes in an older paperback edition for a tempting price. Do you think the book to which you linked is a paperback? It isn't designated "broché"; but a 2000 publication year suggests a paperback to me.

~Nicholas


I'm not sure. My copy of the syntax volume is paperback; its ISBN is 2252025204.

Mr. Dany Dube at Librairie La Canopee is very helpful.

Cordially,

Paul