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U)PE/R

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:34 pm
by Bert
In cunlliffe's lexicon, in the entry [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] it says [in form comp. fr. [size=150]ὑπό[/size]]
Does this really mean that the one is (or was) a comparative form of the other?

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:10 am
by Paul
Hi Bert,

Nice observation; and an interesting question.

Apparently [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] are related.

In Watkins' "The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots", 'upo' contains these entries:

7. Basic form *upo. HYPO-, from Greek hupo, under.
8. Suffixed variant form *ups-o-. HYPSO-, from Greek hupsos, height, top.

Note: 7 says 'under', 8 says 'height, top'.

Now the [size=150]ὕψ[/size] in [size=150]ὕψος[/size] is also seen in [size=150]ὕψι[/size], 'on high'; cf. [size=150]ὑψιβρεμέτης[/size]. Chantraine conjectures that its final iota may be a locative suffix.
Removing it and what Chantraine calls the the 'obscure sigma morpheme', we are left with [size=150]ὕπ[/size]. He calls this the root of both [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size].

I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....

Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [size=150]ὑπό[/size].

Cordially,

Paul

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:41 am
by Kasper
Paul wrote: I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....
Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:51 pm
by Paul
Kasper wrote:Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.
That's certainly interesting. It sounds like 'altus' has something to do with vertical extension.

But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?

Cordially,

Paul

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 pm
by Bert
Paul wrote:

Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [size=150]ὑπό[/size].
If it's all the same to you, I'll call 'up' a cognate with [size=150]ὑπέρ [/size] :)

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:13 pm
by Kasper
Paul wrote:
But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?
I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if sub, super, u(po\ and u(pe\r all have 1 and the same common ancestor.

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:37 am
by hyptia
If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [size=150]ὑπό[/size] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] are from the root uper.

Nonetheless, the roots themselves are quite similar, and P.I.E. has other examples of similar words having related meanings. :)

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:13 pm
by Paul
Hi,

This is a bit off-topic, but can any of our native French speakers shed some etymological light on the pair dessous/dessus? Their meaning and appearance seem analogous to [size=150]ὑπό[/size] and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size].

I mean that they look alike but commonly have opposite meanings.

Thanks.

Cordially,

Paul

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:47 pm
by Thucydides
Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:34 pm
by annis
Thucydides wrote:Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.
The very same thought has occurred to me.

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:19 pm
by Thucydides
Monro ('Grammar of the Homeric Dialect', 1891):

HUPO:
The preposition upo usually means beneath... The original sense, however, seems to have been upwards, as in the superlative 'uptatos' - 'uppermost' (c.f. 'hupsi' - 'aloft', 'huptios' - 'facing upwards'). On this view we can understand whyhupo is not applied (like 'kata') to express downward motion...

HUPER:
...In respect of form 'huper' (for 'huperi', Sanscrit 'upari') is a comparative of 'hupo'; cp. the Superlative 'hupatos' and the Latin 'superus', 'summus'...

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:28 pm
by Thucydides
hyptia wrote:If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [size=150]ὑπό[/size] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [size=150]ὑπέρ[/size] are from the root uper.
PIE roots of 'supo' and 'super' surely?

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:42 am
by hyptia
Thucydides wrote:PIE roots of 'supo' and 'super' surely?
The root of 'super' for sure. Come to think of it, that must also be the root of [size=150]ὕπτιος[/size] :lol:

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:01 am
by 1%homeless
Sorry to do some necromancing, but this topic in the thread is something that can't die in mind. It just drives me nuts because of the phonetic similarity and opposite meanings.

Anyway, dessus is from "de sursum" > "de sub versum". Dessous > sous is from "sub"... :twisted:

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:14 pm
by IreneY
Well 1% homeless necromancing is sometimes so interesting isn't it? My etymological dictionary (Bambiniotis') says that
hυπό comes from IE *upo (below, under) cf sanskr. pa, Lat sub (with hard to explain s cf hυπέ?-super), ancient irish fo, gothtic uf, ancient islandic of etc
Same root as hυπέ?, h?πατος, h?ψος etc

in hυπέ? it says
from IE *uper(i) (up, upwards) cf sanskr upari, Lat super (> french sur), armenian ver, ancient Persian upariy, gotthic ufar, ancient german ubir (>german über), engl. upper etc
The meaning of the preposition hυπέ? came from its use for denoting a movement "from down towards up" (bad english there but the best way I can think of giving the exact meaning without getting into the "what does X mean exactly?)