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Dative of location

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Dative of location

Postby Eureka » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:31 pm

(I’m referring to the use of a dative noun to indicate the location of the verb’s action in poetic dialects.)


Is this just [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] +dative with the [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] left off?

Or, is the meaning in any way different from [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] +dative?
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Re: Dative of location

Postby annis » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:04 am

Eureka wrote:Is this just [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] +dative with the [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] left off?

Or, is the meaning in any way different from [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] +dative?


The meaning will often be the same, but the dative should be considered on its own. The IE locative case merged with the dative in Greek, and this poetic usage is the last vestage of it (along with things like [face=spionic]oi)/koi[/face]). It merely indicates a fixed location; a preposition refines that meaning.

Smyth 1531 has various examples, too.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby Eureka » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:21 am

Ah, thanks William.


...So, it’s basically the exact opposite of what I guessed. Perhaps I need to look at the Sanscrit noun cases and find their Greek equivalents, to see the logic behind there things.
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Re: Dative of location

Postby Bert » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:39 am

annis wrote: and this poetic usage is the last vestage of it

Do you mean that this usage is mostly poetic?
I think that Romans 14:10 is an instance of dative of location ([face=SPIonic]pa/ntej ga\r parasthso/meqa tw| bh/mati tou= qeou=.[/face])
I knew that this usage is not that common in koine but is this also a rare exception even in earlier Greek?
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Postby annis » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:57 pm

Eureka wrote:So, it’s basically the exact opposite of what I guessed. Perhaps I need to look at the Sanscrit noun cases and find their Greek equivalents, to see the logic behind there things.


I think Smyth does a good job of this, actually, though he doesn't make direct reference to Sanskrit. If you look at the dative section you'll see that he splits it up into proper dative, locative and instrumental sections (1450). Same with the proper and ablative genitive.
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τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Dative of location

Postby annis » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:04 pm

Bert wrote:
annis wrote: and this poetic usage is the last vestage of it

Do you mean that this usage is mostly poetic?


Yep.

I think that Romans 14:10 is an instance of dative of location ([face=SPIonic]pa/ntej ga\r parasthso/meqa tw| bh/mati tou= qeou=.[/face])


Well, once a verb is compounded with a preposition all sorts of case fun can happen. I'd take the dative here to be the result of [face=spionic]para-[/face] in the verb, not a true bare dative of location.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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