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Iliad line 6

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Iliad line 6

Postby Bert » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:01 am

[face=SPIonic]e)c ou(= dh\ ta\ prw=ta diasth/thn er)isante[/face]<br />I understand the general meaning of this line but I don't understand the force of dh\.<br />If I translate this word, it does not seem to add anything to the meaning but it just makes the English more awkward.<br />Can someone help me out please?<br />Thanks in advance.
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Re:Iliad line 6

Postby annis » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:33 am

Ah, [face=SPIonic]dh/[/face], how do I love thee? Let me count the ways...<br /><br />Welcome to the word of Greek particles! People still write dissertations on these things, and the exact force of particular ones may still be hotly debated. In this case, [face=SPIonic]dh/[/face] is emphatic. It follows some word you wish to draw attention to, and is conventionally translated "indeed, truly," and so on, but this is misleading. It's too strong, and as you discovered makes the translation klunky. Very often these emphatic particles are best translated in a vocal manner: stressing the phrase marked, rather than using an additional word. This is of course hard to translate.<br /><br />When you're reading the greek, and run across [face=SPIonic]dh/[/face], think "ah, this word or phrase just before it is stressed." (You should read Greek to read Greek, not to translate in your head, ultimately.)<br /><br />So, the emphatic particles just draw attention to a word or phrase. The Greeks use a little word to do what many languages do with volume, in this sense. But the particles have what linguists would call pragmatic or discourse functions, too. For example, [face=SPIonic]ge[/face] - which you will see soon - is also emphatic, but implies a selection. The speaker using it is thinking "ah, the person I'm talking to thinks 'X or Y', and I need to say, 'no, just X.'" <br /><br />Or [face=SPIonic]a)/ra[/face], which is very common, implies a logical or natural sequence. "So and so did X, and [face=SPIonic]a)/ra[/face] someone else did Y."<br /><br />In the case of [face=SPIonic]dh/[/face] in Homer (less in later Greek) there is a strong sense of time that goes along with the emphasis, sort of like "now, at last" but without the strong present-tense feel all those phrases have in English. So you see [face=SPIonic]dh/[/face] a lot after phrases of time (like your example), or after [face=SPIonic]to/te dh/, ei) dh/, ktl.[/face].<br /><br />Hmm. According to Monro it also follows adjectives in the superlative to indicate the very highest degree, as Nestor will say at about line 266, [face=SPIonic]ka/rtistoi dh/ kei=noi ktl[/face] "those (were) quite the mightiest men..."<br /><br />Each of the particles has its own typical uses. I could make a list, or go find one, but most of this is only going to become clear after you read more Greek. Everyone finds them perplexing at first. Think of them as emphasis and just think the translation louder :) for now, and pay attention to the uses. It'll become clearer over time.<br /><br />Finally, Homer is very liberal with his particles. The teeny ones can be used to make the meter work. So can one like [face=SPIonic]a)/ra[/face] be used to fill out a syllable or two since the sense of it fits perfectly in a narrative.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re:Iliad line 6

Postby Bert » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:53 am

Thanks william. <br />answers like this make me eager (almost impatient) to be able to read greek comfortably.<br />[quote author=William Annis link=board=2;threadid=283;start=0#1752 date=1058837625]<br /> (You should read Greek to read Greek, not to translate in your head, ultimately.)<br /><br /> [/quote]<br />As a reply to one of my 1st post to this forum, Elucubrator gave very similar advice. I am trying it and slowly on it is working. It makes reading Greek even more enjoyable.<br />Thanks Guys!
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Re:Iliad line 6

Postby Paul » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:01 am

Hi,<br /><br />To flesh this out a bit more let me quote from Denniston's<br />"The Greek Particles" about dh/ (take a deep breath):<br /><br />"The derivation of dh/, of which widely divergent views have been held, remains entirely obscure.<br />It has often been held that the primary sense of the dh/ is temporal....The evidence for this<br />supposed temporal sense is, however, exceedingly weak: and I doubt whether any such view would have gained currency without the support of precarious etymologies. The essential meaning seems clearly to be 'verily', 'actually', 'indeed'. dh/ denotes that a thing really and truly is so: or that it is very much so..." <br /><br />A few pages later he says:<br /><br />"Hitherto dh/ has emphasized individual words, though in many cases, as we have seen, the emphasis is to some extent distributed over the whole clause or sentence. We have now to consider passages in which it emphasizes structural words, which affect the whole architecture of the sentence."<br /><br />Under the general heading, then, of relatives where <br />dh/ stresses the importance of the relative, and referring directly to Iliad A6, he says:<br /><br />"Relative temporal adverbs, 'precisely when', 'just when'."<br /><br />In A6 the relative in question is e)c ou(= <br /><br />Homer asks the Muse to begin singing her story from a specific moment in time: when Agamemnon and Achilles first squared off.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul
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Re:Iliad line 6

Postby annis » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:24 pm

[quote author=Paul link=board=2;threadid=283;start=0#1754 date=1058839280]<br /><br />To flesh this out a bit more let me quote from Denniston's<br />"The Greek Particles" about dh/ (take a deep breath):<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Someday I will be able to afford this book. (Of course, I just ordered both volumes of West's Teubner edition of the Iliad... not cheap).<br /><br />Does he make a clear distinction between different periods of Greek?<br />
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re:Iliad line 6

Postby Paul » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:04 pm

[quote author=William Annis link=board=2;threadid=283;start=0#1778 date=1058876687]<br /><br />Does he make a clear distinction between different periods of Greek?<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yes, where warranted. I suppose that where a particle has uses characteristic of a particular period or author, Denniston so notes. For example, the 40 page(!) discussion of me/n has a section on its 'emphatic' use in Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, and Ionic verse and a section on its 'preparatory' use in later Attic.<br /><br />Similarly, me/ntoi is discussed in its Epic, Elegiac, and early iambic use; then as used in Ionic prose and in Attic.<br /><br />The beloved dh/, on the other hand, receives a largely functional treatment without much consideration of the different periods of Greek.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul<br /><br />
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Re:Iliad line 6

Postby Ptolemaios » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:19 pm

As a source book, Denniston is still the best. Concerning theory, as William's post on pragmatic functions also shows, one should use Denniston with caution.<br /><br />I thought Bristol Classical Press has reprinted Denniston. Is this edition also expensive?<br /><br />Euchomai humas errôsthai,<br /><br />Ptolemaios
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