Textkit Logo

Pharr Lesson IX Exercises

Are you reading Homeric Greek or studying Homeric Greek with Pharr's Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners? Here's where you can meet other Homeric Greek learners. Use this board for all things Homeric Greek.

Pharr Lesson IX Exercises

Postby Lex » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:12 am

Since William's keys to Pharr on aoidoi.org skip the exercises for lesson 9, and since I hate not having feedback for exercises, I am posting my feeble attempts at translation here. Any constructive criticism is welcome. Thanks.

William,

One general question: I noticed that in Pharr, the word for "fatherland" is listed as [face=SPIonic]pa/trh[/face], where your solutions always have it as though it is [face=SPIonic]patrh/[/face]. For instance, for the genitive you use [face=SPIonic]patrh=j[/face], whereas Pharr uses [face=SPIonic]pa/trhj[/face]. What's up with this? Is Pharr wrong? Are you wrong? Am I missing another funky accentuation rule?

NB: I know that I am doing the breathing marks on capital vowels wrong in Betacode. I am doing it this way so it looks tolerable both to those who have SPIonic installed, and those who don't.

Translate:

1) [face=SPIonic]o( e(khbo/loj dia\ mantosu/nhn ei)/rei boula\j tw=n qew=n 'Argei/oisin.[/face]

This sharpshooter through the gift of prophecy tells the plans of the gods to the Argives.

2) [face=SPIonic]oi( 'Olu/mpioi qeoi\ ei)=xon oi)=kouj e)n 'Olu/mpw|.[/face]

These Olympian gods had houses on Olympus.

3) [face=SPIonic]o( e(khbo/loj dii/filoj e)/teuxe tou\j 'Argei/ouj 'Axaiou/j te e(lw/ria oi)wnoi=sin.[/face]

This sharpshooter (who is) dear to Zeus made these Argives and Achaeans spoils for birds.

4) [face=SPIonic]'Axaioi\ 'Argei/oi t' e)/teuxon e)/rga kaka\ dia\ boulh\n qea=j.[/face]

The Achaeans and Argives did wicked deeds on account of the will of the goddess.

5) [face=SPIonic]Klutaimnh/strh dia\ to\n qumo\n e)/teuxen ta\ e)/rga deina/.[/face]

Clytaemnestra did these terrible deeds on account of her heart.

6) [face=SPIonic]Pri/amoj lao/j te Pria/mou w)/lekon pollou\j 'Argei/ouj.[/face]

Priam and the host of Priam destroyed many Argives.

7) [face=SPIonic]ti/j ei)/rei ta\ sa\ e)/rga kaka\ Pria/mw| ;[/face]

Who says these (are) your evil deeds to Priam?

8) [face=SPIonic]ta\ e)/rga e)ma/ e)sti kala/, ou(/neka e)/teuxon boula\j qew=n kai\ qea/wn dia\ th\n mantosu/nhn.[/face]

These deeds of mine are noble, because they fulfilled the wishes of the gods and goddesses through this gift of prophecy.

9) [face=SPIonic]e)pe/mpomen ta\ xru/sea skh=ptra ei)j oi)=kon Pria/mw|.[/face]

We sent these golden sceptres to the house of Priam.

10) [face=SPIonic]e)kai/ete ta\j pura\j deinh=| klaggh=| ;[/face]

You (plural) burned the funeral pyres with a dreadful noise?

11) [face=SPIonic]ou)x h(/ndane h( boulh\ qea=| qala/sshj qumw=| ;[/face]

This plan did not please the goddess of the sea in her heart?

12) [face=SPIonic]ai( qeai\ a)ei/dousi ta\ kala\ e)/rga tw=n qew=n, e(khbo/loj de\ bai/nei a)/llh|.[/face]

These goddesses sing of these noble deeds of these gods, but the sharpshooter goes elsewhere.

13) [face=SPIonic]ei)=xe Pri/amoj a)glao\n kai\ kalo\n oi)=kon.[/face]

Priam had a splendid and beautiful home.

Translate:

1) Who brought these countless shining ransoms to the beautiful home of Priam?

[face=SPIonic]ti/j e)/pempe ta\ a)perei/si' a)gla/a a)/poina oi)=kw| kalw=| Pria/mou ;[/face]

2) The Achaeans and the Argives burned many funeral pyres in your beloved fatherland.

[face=SPIonic]'Axaioi\ 'Argei/oi t' e)/kaion polla\j pura\j e)ni\ sh=| fi/lh| pa/trh|.[/face]

3) Clytaemnestra was wicked and performed many dreadful deeds.

[face=SPIonic]Klutaimnh/strh h)=n kakh\ kai\ e)/teuxe polla\ deina\ e)/rga.[/face]

4) Through the gift of prophecy we tell many glorious deeds of the gods and goddesses who have Olympian homes.

[face=SPIonic]dia\ mantosu/nhn ei)/romen polla\ a)gla/a e)/rga qew=n kai\ qea/wn, oi(/ e)/xousin
oi)/kouj 'Olumpi/ouj.[/face]


5) My deeds are noble but yours are cowardly.

[face=SPIonic]e)/rga e)ma/ e)sti kala/, sa\ de\ kaka/.[/face]

6) The gods sent an evil plague up through the camp and destroyed many Achaeans, because they dishonored the sharpshooter.

[face=SPIonic]qeoi\ e)/pempon nou=son kakh\n a)na\ strato\n kai\ w)/lekon pollou\j 'Axaiou/j,
ou(/neka e(khbo/loj h)ti/mazon.[/face]


7) It was not pleasing to Clytaemnestra in her wicked soul.

[face=SPIonic]ou)x h(nda/ne Klutaimnh/strh| qumw=| kakw=|.[/face]
I, Lex Llama, super genius, will one day rule this planet! And then you'll rue the day you messed with me, you damned dirty apes!
User avatar
Lex
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:34 pm
Location: A top-secret underground llama lair.

Re: Pharr Lesson IX Exercises

Postby annis » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:48 pm

Lex wrote:William,

One general question: I noticed that in Pharr, the word for "fatherland" is listed as [face=SPIonic]pa/trh[/face], where your solutions always have it as though it is [face=SPIonic]patrh/[/face]. For instance, for the genitive you use [face=SPIonic]patrh=j[/face], whereas Pharr uses [face=SPIonic]pa/trhj[/face]. What's up with this? Is Pharr wrong? Are you wrong? Am I missing another funky accentuation rule?


Doh!

Pharr is right, I am wrong. At least I'm consistent when I'm wrong, though. :)

I've fixed this in the key. Thanks for pointing it out.

If someone else doesn't get to it first, I'll take a look at your translations later today.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby Paul » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:20 pm

Hey Lex,

Nice job.

Comparing against my dusty Pharr notes, here's my take on it.

Greek to English

1. OK. Maybe 'of those/these gods' rather than 'of the gods'.
2. OK
3. OK. [face=SPIonic]e)/teuxe [/face] is an imperfect (past progressive) and so could also be rendered 'was making'.
4. OK
5. OK
6. OK
7. I'm not sure about '(are)'. I translate: "Who tells these your evil deeds to Priam?".
8. OK
9. 'for Priam' rather than 'of Priam'
10. OK
11.OK. I had "Was this plan not pleasing..."
12. OK
13. OK

English to Greek

1. Perhaps use [face=SPIonic]e)fe/rei[/face] (bear, carry, bring) instead of [face=SPIonic]e)/pempe[/face] (send, conduct, escort). Also I don't think use of
dative [face=SPIonic]oi)=kw| kalw=| [/face] is correct. If you intend to convey motion toward a place, e.g., "to the home of Priam", then use the accusative either
by itself or with a preposition like [face=SPIonic]e)ij[/face]. The dative, as rendered by english to/for, indicates advantage, benefit, interest - the typical indirect object meanings.
Had the english sentence read "...for the beautiful home of Priam", then use of dative would be correct.

Finally, I think accent is [face=SPIonic]a)glaa\[/face]

2. OK
3. OK
4. OK
5. OK
6. [face=SPIonic]e(khbo/lon[/face] (want accusative here)
7. [face=SPIonic]h(/ndane[/face] (accent)

Cordially,

Paul
User avatar
Paul
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
Location: New York

Postby Lex » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:39 pm

Paul wrote:Hey Lex,

Nice job.

Comparing against my dusty Pharr notes, here's my take on it.

Greek to English

1. OK. Maybe 'of those/these gods' rather than 'of the gods'.


You're right. That's what I get for starting with Attic, then switching to Epic.

Paul wrote:3. OK. [face=SPIonic]e)/teuxe [/face] is an imperfect (past progressive) and so could also be rendered 'was making'.


Hmmm... thanks for reminding me. Pharr seems to use the simple past tense for Lesson IX, even though he hasn't presented aorists yet, so I guess I got caught up in that pattern. I should probably use "was x-ing" for imperfect verbs, just to remind myself of the difference.

Paul wrote:7. I'm not sure about '(are)'. I translate: "Who tells these your evil deeds to Priam?".


I was very unsure about that one. I was thinking that somebody was accusing Priam of evil deeds, and another person was wondering who would dare say such a thing.

Paul wrote:9. 'for Priam' rather than 'of Priam'


Doh! I'm still not used to thinking in inflections.

Paul wrote:English to Greek

Perhaps use [face=SPIonic]e)fe/rei[/face] (bear, carry, bring) instead of [face=SPIonic]e)/pempe[/face] (send, conduct, escort)


[face=SPIonic]e)fe/rei[/face] or [face=SPIonic]e)/fere[/face]?

Paul wrote:Also I don't think use of
dative [face=SPIonic]oi)=kw| kalw=| [/face] is correct. If you intend to convey motion toward a place, e.g., "to the home of Priam", then use the accusative either
by itself or with a preposition like [face=SPIonic]e)ij[/face]. The dative, as rendered by english to/for, indicates advantage, benefit, interest - the typical indirect object meanings.
Had the english sentence read "...for the beautiful home of Priam", then use of dative would be correct.


Yikes. I really screwed that one up. I should have known better. This is why I still need feedback!

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it.
I, Lex Llama, super genius, will one day rule this planet! And then you'll rue the day you messed with me, you damned dirty apes!
User avatar
Lex
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:34 pm
Location: A top-secret underground llama lair.

Postby Paul » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:49 pm

lex wrote:[face=SPIonic]e)fe/rei[/face] or [face=SPIonic]e)/fere[/face]?


Hi Lex,

Sorry, my mistake. It would be [face=SPIonic]e)/fere[/face].

We all need feedback! :)

Cordially,

Paul
User avatar
Paul
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:47 pm
Location: New York

Re: Pharr Lesson IX Exercises

Postby jabloom99 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:24 am

I have been struggling with sentence 7 also:

τίς εἴρει τὰ σὰ ἔργα κακὰ Πριάμῳ;

The literal translation seems to be:

"Who speaks these your evil deeds to Priam?"

The translation itself doesn't seem too difficult, it's the semantic meaning that is perplexing (other posters on this thread seem to have had similar concerns). Other times, when I produce a result that makes no sense, I recheck my work and find a mistake. This time though, it looks right.

I read this as Priam himself speaking to someone (hence σὰ - 'your'), and Priam is asking who the hearer (who had apparently just spoken to Priam) is who has the audacity to speak of the evil deeds to Priam. But this just doesn't seem to make much sense.

Would it make more sense if the first word were τί instead of τίς - thus "Why does he speak these your evil deeds to Priam?"

Alternatively, has anyone who has made the push through the Iliad encountered a similar phrase that this practice sentence is supposed to prepare us for?
jabloom99
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:29 am

Re: Pharr Lesson IX Exercises

Postby Polyidos » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:21 am

jabloom99 wrote:The literal translation seems to be:

"Who speaks these your evil deeds to Priam?"

I read this as Priam himself speaking to someone (hence σὰ - 'your'), and Priam is asking who the hearer (who had apparently just spoken to Priam) is who has the audacity to speak of the evil deeds to Priam. But this just doesn't seem to make much sense.


With these isolated sentences in Pharr's exercises it can often be difficult to establish a reasonable context. I took it as being spoken by a third person, addressing the evil deed doer, and asking who is reporting his evil deeds to the king. Thus I translated it as:

"Who tells these evil deeds of yours to Priam?"

Since Pharr glosses the verb as "speak, say, tell" I opted for "tell" as a more direct translation. Also, one often needs to use a slightly different syntactic construct in the translation to obtain smooth English. Thus, I needed to include both the demonstrative and possessive elements but as your literal translation shows, a direct syntactic parallel in English does not always result in a desirable style. So, I bent it a little bit to give "of yours" as the possessive element.

At the time I worked these exercises I was a participant in a Textkit-sponsored study group and the guide accepted my answer as written. While perhaps not definitive, the guide was a highly respected member of the Textkit community so I feel justified in offering my answer as a reasonable solution.

I hope this helps.
phpbb
Polyidos
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:43 pm
Location: Roswell, GA


Return to Homeric Greek and Pharr's Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 6 guests