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Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek Prose

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How much are you getting out of Dickey right now?

I knew this book would be great and it has been. I love it!
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I'm using the book and it has exceeded my expectations. I really like it so far.
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I'm using the book and I like it, but I have some reservations.
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I'm using the book and it's been okay.
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I'm using the book and it's been a disappointment so far.
1
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I'm still using the book, but I hate it and I am about to give up.
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I just started using the book. I can't really say.
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I own the book and I seriously intend to use the book, but I haven't started using it yet.
1
14%
 
Total votes : 7

Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Markos » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:34 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:Markos' latest seem fine to me. I'd perhaps change the word order in 30:
30. τὸ τοὺς ναύτας φυλάττεσθαι ἔτι φρόνιμον.

Yes, Paul, I think you are right on this one. thanks.

If you look at the order in which the vocab for chapter 3 is presented, it appears to be

1. adverbs 2. nouns 3. adjectives 4. verbs.

I THINK, that through chapter 3, Dickey wants the BASIC word order to be

1. adverb 2. subject. 3. object. 4. verb.

Now, beyond that, I still haven't figured out what Dickey is trying to teach me about word order. I've only completed the exercises through page 33. And I still have lots of questions about stuff BEFORE that!

I will try to post my latest attempts from page 33 later this weekend, though it is a busy time for me right now. I really appreciate Dickey and this group so far! ἔρρωσθε!
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Hylander » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:33 pm

An adverb that modifies a verb should generally be placed close to the verb. If the adverb is fronted for emphasis, the verb should generally follow not much later. I would emphasize "generally."

It's difficult to prescribe hard and fast rules for Greek word order (though there are some, e.g., certain connectives are always placed in the second slot in a clause). Dover's book explores the motivating factors.

Dickey doesn't give much guidance on word order, and I don't think the solutions she gives in the appendix are necessarily to be taken as exclusive as far as word order is concerned.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Markos » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:44 pm

χαίρετε πάντες.

Here are my latest attempts/drafts from page 33. I am sure that there are still lots of mistakes.

31. τοῖς τῶν δικαίων καὶ τῶν ἀδίκων λόγοις δικάσομεν.
32. ἀδύνατον τὸ καλὰς γνώμας ἀεὶ ἔχειν.
33. ὁ μὲν σοφὸς τὸν μόνον οἰκέτην διδάσκεται. ὁ δ' οὐ δύνατος μαθεῖν.


Μᾶρκος
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Hylander » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:30 am

32. ἀγαθὰς γνώμας

33. δυνατὸς

This isn't a μεν δε contrast. There is no contrast between the wise man and the house slave. The tension is between the wise man's efforts to have his house slave taught and the house slave's inability to learn, but this opposition doesn't lend itself to a μεν δε contrast. If you delete μὲν it would be ok, but maybe, in addition, οὗτος δ' οὐ δυνατὸς would be better.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Markos » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:19 am

thanks, Hylander!
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Markos » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:50 pm

Dickey, p. 219, #2 wrote:(τὰ) θηρία πολλάκις κακὰ πάσχει ὑπ' ἀνθρώπων.

I really like this number two.
The reason why I've not a clue.
Μᾶρκος wrote:Some people say that hearing Greek spoken out loud helps to internalize it. Does anyone want to take a crack at recording this sentence?

ailuros wrote:can't speak for others, but i don't read aloud or record. sorry.

No worries, ailuros. As this group grows, I'm sure we can find someone who does. In the meantime, I got a friend to record it.

https://archive.org/details/NewRecording36_201608

This is not exactly how I pronounce Ancient Greek, but I like the way it sounds. It has helped me to internalize the sentence. I would like to hear this and other Dickey sentences recorded in other pronunciation schemes.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Amplaos » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:10 am

Just got the book, will start on it today.

Ἄρτι μὲν ἐδέξαμην τὸ βιβλίον, ἄρξομαι δὲ σήμερον τοῦ αὐτῷ μελετᾶν.
Ῥήθεντα ὑπὸ τοῦ μεγάλου ῥήτορος Δονάλδου Τρᾶμπ·

"Ἡμᾶς μὲν δεῖ τεῖχος οἰκοδομῆσαι, αὐτὸ δὲ ταχέως οἰκοδομηθῆναι."
"Συνίημι τοὺς λόγους. Ἔχω δὴ τοὺς ἀρίστους λόγους."
"Ὀλίγόν μοι ἐδανείσεν ὁ πατήρ, ἑκατομύριον δολάρια."
"Μοι δὲ ἀρέσκουσι οἱ μὴ ζωγρηθέντες."
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Hylander » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:44 pm

Ἄρτι μὲν ἐδέξαμην τὸ βιβλίον, ἄρξομαι δὲ σήμερον τοῦ αὐτῷ μελετᾶν.

A few suggestions:

This doesn't lend itself to a μεν δε contrast: "On the one hand, I just received the book; on the other, I'll begin studying with it today." There's no contrast between just now and today, or between receiving and beginning. In any case, μεν and δε would have to follow immediately the words being contrasted. I'd suggest dropping μεν, but continuing to use δὲ as a connective between the two clauses.

ἄρξομαι would be better with a supplementary participle or a non-articular infinitive. Generally, it takes an accusative object of the subject being studied. Also, the dative alone can be used for an instrument, but here something additional is needed. Maybe σήμερον δὲ αὐτῷ χρώμενος/χρωμένη ἄρξομαι μελετᾶν [or μελετῶν/μελετῶσα] τὴν ἑλληνικὴν γλώττην.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Markos » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:19 pm

Amplaos wrote:Just got the book, will start on it today.

Ἄρτι μὲν ἐδέξαμην τὸ βιβλίον, ἄρξομαι δὲ σήμερον τοῦ αὐτῷ μελετᾶν.

ὦ χαῖρε, φίλτατε. ἐνθάδε δέ σε εὐρὼν, χαίρω ἔγωγε. ἔρρωσο!

Hi, Amplaos. Welcome to the group. I'm really happy to have you here because I am huge fan of all your creative Greek writing. I love your Greek Haikus and your Monty Python bits. And I've enjoyed our own L2 e-mail exchanges. And you're a friend of Paul D's. Did I get that right?
Amplaos wrote:...ἄρξομαι δὲ σήμερον τοῦ αὐτῷ μελετᾶν.

Hylander wrote:σήμερον δὲ αὐτῷ χρώμενος/χρωμένη ἄρξομαι μελετᾶν [or μελετῶν/μελετῶσα] τὴν ἑλληνικὴν γλώττην.

@Ηυλανδηρ.

That's really helpful to me to see an L2 paraphrase of a Greek sentence. χάριν οὖν οἶδά σε.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Amplaos » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:22 pm

Τῷ Αἵλανδερ· Εὐχαριστῶ σοι τῆς διορθώσεως χάριν. Κατ' ἄλλους μὲν ὧν τοὺς λόγους ἀνέγνων, τὸ "ἄρξομαι" συνέρχεται τῇ γενικῇ πτώσει, σοι δὲ πείθομαι.

Πῶς σοι φαίνεται οὗτος ὁ λόγος; " ἄρτι ἐδέξαμην τὸ βιβλίον, σημέρον δὲ ἄρξομαι τὴν ἑλληνικὴν γλώσσαν μελετᾶν αὐτῷ χρώμενος."

Τῷ Μάρκῳ· Εὐχαριστῶ καί σοι. Φίλος οὐκ εἰμι ἐκείνῳ τῷ Παύλῳ, ἐχθρός δ' οὔ. Αὐτὸν γὰρ οὐ γιγνώσκω.

Ἰδὼν τὰς πρώτας τοῦ βιβλίου σελίδας, αἱ ἑλληνικαὶ λέξεις χωρὶς τόνων (ἐφ' ἅς θετέοι οἱ τόνοι ὡς μελετήμα). αἰσχραί μοι φαίνονται. Δύσκολον καὶ δία τοῦτο μοι τὸ τὴν νέαν ἑλληνικὴν γλώσσαν μανθάνειν. Αἱ γὰρ νεοελληνικαὶ λέξεις μόνον ἕνα τόνον φέρουσι, τὸν ὀξὺν, καὶ αἱ λέξεις μίας συλλαβῆς οὐδένα.
Last edited by Amplaos on Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ῥήθεντα ὑπὸ τοῦ μεγάλου ῥήτορος Δονάλδου Τρᾶμπ·

"Ἡμᾶς μὲν δεῖ τεῖχος οἰκοδομῆσαι, αὐτὸ δὲ ταχέως οἰκοδομηθῆναι."
"Συνίημι τοὺς λόγους. Ἔχω δὴ τοὺς ἀρίστους λόγους."
"Ὀλίγόν μοι ἐδανείσεν ὁ πατήρ, ἑκατομύριον δολάρια."
"Μοι δὲ ἀρέσκουσι οἱ μὴ ζωγρηθέντες."
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Hylander » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:08 pm

αρχομαι takes a genitive noun ("begin something"). But when the complement is a verb ("begin doing something") it generally takes an infinitive or a supplementary participle. This is in the vocabulary for Dickey's Unit V.

ἄρτι ἐδέξαμην τὸ βιβλίον, σημέρον δὲ ἄρξομαι τὴν ἑλληνικὴν γλώσσαν μελετᾶν αὐτῷ χρώμενος -- this is ok. I tried to put αὐτῷ closer to its referent.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Markos » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:15 pm

I'm almost done with chapter 3. To internalize what I've learned so far, I have been using the weather thread to compose sentences which use only the Dickey vocab and constructions through chapter 3. This a.m. I wrote
Markos wrote:ἡ γενναία ἕως καλὰ νῦν φέρει.

I'm sure there are lots of mistakes in this sentence, but I THINK Dickey would approve of the word order.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby Hylander » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:51 pm

Dickey doesn't have much to say about word order.

I'd suggest using her exercises for consolidation. Weather vocabulary is too limited. An important part of her exercises consists of learning and using verbs and their complements.
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Re: Using Dickey's Intro to the Comp and Analysis of Greek P

Postby mwh » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:25 pm

She wouldn’t think much of ἡ γενναία ἕως, but the word order of the sentence is unexceptionable—unnuanced and “normal.” Word order and its subtleties come into their own when there’s more context and complexity.

But (τὰ) θηρία πολλάκις κακὰ πάσχει ὑπ' ἀνθρώπων, which you say you “really like” without knowing why, has a feature that many Greek writers would have avoided as ugly and aesthetically offensive, one that should indeed make itself felt if you read the sentence aloud: the hiatus πάσχει ὑπ’ἀνθρώπων, easily avoidable by putting ὑπ'ἀνθρώπων before or after πολλάκις. That’s a stylistic matter that I guess Dickey hasn’t yet touched on. (But I trust she will.)
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