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Question about Plato passage

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Question about Plato passage

Postby Lina » Sat May 02, 2009 2:15 am

Hi all,

I have been working on a Plato passage from Athenaze, Chapter 24b. It is from "Protagoras" 325d8:
Μετα δε ταυτα εις διδασκαλων πεμποντες πολυ μαλλον τους διδασκαλους κελευουσιν επιμελεισθαι ευκοσμιας των παιδων η γραμματων τε και κιθαρισεως.

My translation:
Μετα δε ταυτα
"After these things" (the training of children by parents and nurses, from previous reading)

εις διδασκαλων πεμποντες
"sending (the children) to teachers"

πολυ μαλλον τους διδασκαλους κελευουσιν επιμελεισθαι ευκοσμιας των παιδων η γραμματων τε και κιθαρισεως.
"many more (parents) tell the teachers to take care for the good behavior of the children and (the study of) writing and music."

My troublesome phrase is "πολυ μαλλον". Athenaze translates μαλλον as "more" or "rather", but it always adds a clunkiness to whatever I translate. As for πολυ, it seems to be one of those words that often doesn't have a defined noun attached to it. The intuitive thing I would want to say in this sentence is that "some of parents" or "many of the parents" acts as the subject of that phrase, but I could be entirely off.

Any advice?
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby LSorenson » Sat May 02, 2009 3:43 am

πολύ and μᾶλλον (= μᾶλα; not μαλλόν = wool, acc. of μαλλός) are both adverbs. Together they mean "much more" - going with κέλευουσιν. πολύ is neuter singular from πολύς πολλά πολύ. The subject of the sentence is unexpressed, 'parents' plural masculine (= γονεῖς ?) as shown by the participle πεμποντες. Look at the section of πολύς in LSJ where it is hooked up with adverbs and prepositions (the end of the entry in the lexicon) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph.jsp?l=polus&la=greek#lexicon

Also, ἢ γραμμάτων τε καὶ κιθάρεως means "than letters and the kithara". ἤ can be used along with the genitive in comparisons. διδασκαλων should be in the accusative (a typo? = διδάσκαλον) when the object of εἰς. εἰς only takes the accusative.
Last edited by LSorenson on Sat May 02, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat May 02, 2009 4:17 am

LSorenson wrote:Also, ἢ γραμμάτων τε καὶ κιθάρεως means "than letters and the kithara". ἤ can be used along with the genitive in comparisons.

Just to add here, in general ἢ can be used (with whatever case) instead of the genitive by itself. Here the genitive is used because επιμελουμαι takes the genitive. So for Lina, it's basically like "to take much more care of the good behaviour ... than of their letters ..."

διδασκαλων should be in the accusative (a typo? = διδάσκαολον) when the object of εἰς. εἰς only takes the accusative.

εἰς can be used with a genitive with an implied accusative, like how in English you can say "I went over to Bob's". εἰς διδασκάλων is a way of saying "to school". (Or it's a typo ... but it doesn't have to be.)
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby thesaurus » Sat May 02, 2009 10:31 am

modus.irrealis wrote:εἰς can be used with a genitive with an implied accusative, like how in English you can say "I went over to Bob's". εἰς διδασκάλων is a way of saying "to school". (Or it's a typo ... but it doesn't have to be.)

The implied word is οἶκον right, as in "εἰς [τὸν οἶκον τὸν] διδασκάλων"?
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat May 02, 2009 10:18 pm

thesaurus wrote:The implied word is οἶκον right, as in "εἰς [τὸν οἶκον τὸν] διδασκάλων"?

Or some other word that designates a building/place -- although that makes me wonder now about whether in ancient Athens you'd send your kids to the teacher's house or if they actually had schools.

But with διδάσκαλος, since it lacks the article, I wonder if the construction has become more of an idiom. It seems a lot like English "to school", which also lacks the article and doesn't necessarily refer to a specific place but just "to school."
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby jaihare » Sun May 03, 2009 10:38 am

LSorenson wrote:Together they mean "much more" - going with κέλευουσιν.

Shouldn't that be κελεύουσιν?
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby Lina » Sun May 03, 2009 4:45 pm

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses. They really helped.

1. As far as "εις διδασκαλων", this was the form the book gave me, but whether the book made a typo, I could not say.

2. When people write responses, I often see little boxes in place of certain greek vowels. Do I need to do something to my settings?

3. And, sorry to bother you again, I have just one more question. (Then I will go away and do the exercises, which will take me at least a week!)

In the reading, Phillip, the good student, has been given some history books which he enjoys. The passage is now telling what the books are about:

Εν οις πολλα τε αλλα λεγεται και ο περι Κροισου λογος.
"In which is told much, both other things, and also the story regarding Kroisus." (my translation)

Does that seem right?

Thanks,
Lina
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby jaihare » Sun May 03, 2009 7:06 pm

Lina wrote:Εν οις πολλα τε αλλα λεγεται και ο περι Κροισου λογος.
"In which is told much, both other things, and also the story regarding Kroisus." (my translation)

I would venture:
"In which (books) are said many different things, even the story about Croesus."

Is there a reason you don't include the accents?

Regards,
Ἰήσων
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby thesaurus » Sun May 03, 2009 7:09 pm

Lina wrote:2. When people write responses, I often see little boxes in place of certain greek vowels. Do I need to do something to my settings?


I'm guessing this is why you don't write accents. I don't know about the settings, but I bet you're having trouble displaying diacritics.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun May 03, 2009 11:52 pm

Lina wrote:1. As far as "εις διδασκαλων", this was the form the book gave me, but whether the book made a typo, I could not say.

About this, I checked and the original Plato line has the genitive εις διδασκαλων.

3. And, sorry to bother you again, I have just one more question. (Then I will go away and do the exercises, which will take me at least a week!)

In the reading, Phillip, the good student, has been given some history books which he enjoys. The passage is now telling what the books are about:

Εν οις πολλα τε αλλα λεγεται και ο περι Κροισου λογος.
"In which is told much, both other things, and also the story regarding Kroisus." (my translation)

Does that seem right?

Just to add to what Jaihare said, remember that τε goes with the word that comes before it (πολλα τε = και πολλα). Also this construction with αλλος, τε, and και is often used to highlight what comes after the και so you could also translate it as "besides many other things, the story of Croesus" or "many things, but especially the story of Croesus" depending on context.
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby Lina » Tue May 05, 2009 4:27 am

Thanks once again for helping with that sentence.

Strangely, if I cut and paste the text that has the little boxes to my Word program, I can see the accents, but here, I can only see the unaccented letters. I guess I'll have to play with the settings.
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Re: Question about Plato passage

Postby jaihare » Tue May 05, 2009 10:48 am

Lina wrote:Thanks once again for helping with that sentence.

Strangely, if I cut and paste the text that has the little boxes to my Word program, I can see the accents, but here, I can only see the unaccented letters. I guess I'll have to play with the settings.

I'm sure it's because you have an older version of the Arial font. That really is the culprit, in my opinion. However, you should be able to copy and paste the text that appears on the forum (even with the boxes) into a .txt file that is set to display in "Palatino Linotype" — and then you should be able to view the Greek characters properly. You need to get up an updated copy of the Arial font.
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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