Help on translation plz

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heiss
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Help on translation plz

Post by heiss »

I'm looking for a Greek scholar who can accurately translate the following phrase.
This is a Lucianic Version of the Septuagint. Because it is a translation from Hebrew it is somewhat awkward.

kai eipen o laos ouk exeleusei oti ean fugontes fugwmen "ou sthsetai en hmin kardia"

Sorry don't know yet how to type in Greek in a proper font.

I'm particularly troubled by the last quoted part.
The first part would be "and the people said you shall not go out because if we flee a fleeing..."

Then, what does the remaining part mean?
Is it correct to that kardia should be the subject of this phrase given that it is nominative?
Then should it be rendered "the heart will not stand upon us?"
There is no way that kardia could serve here as an object rather than subject, right?

Your help would be very appreciated. Thanks.

modus.irrealis
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Re: Help on translation plz

Post by modus.irrealis »

Not quite a scholar, but I can tell you that you're right that καρδία (kardia) has to be the subject of στήσεται (sthsetai) and cannot be the object. ἐν (en) can have various meanings but "in" or "among" seem to fit best here, and there's no definite article with καρδία (kardia), so literally it's something like "(a) heart will not stand in/among us" or taking into account the word order, it's like "there will stand (or be) no heart in/among us."

But the φυγόντες φύγωμεν (fugontes fugwmen), which literally is "we flee having fled", seems to me to be translationese, and I know ἐν (en) tends to be used like the corresponding Hebrew preposition (be I think) even though it has a wider usage than the Greek preposition does, so I'm not willing to rule out a meaning like "upon." And I'm not sure exactly what metaphorical meaning "heart" has here (I don't want to let modern usage mislead me and anyway, I can see a few possibilities that make sense), but I suspect that too would go back to the Hebrew word.

heiss
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Re: Help on translation plz

Post by heiss »

modus.irrealis wrote:Not quite a scholar, but I can tell you that you're right that καρδία (kardia) has to be the subject of στήσεται (sthsetai) and cannot be the object. ἐν (en) can have various meanings but "in" or "among" seem to fit best here, and there's no definite article with καρδία (kardia), so literally it's something like "(a) heart will not stand in/among us" or taking into account the word order, it's like "there will stand (or be) no heart in/among us."

But the φυγόντες φύγωμεν (fugontes fugwmen), which literally is "we flee having fled", seems to me to be translationese, and I know ἐν (en) tends to be used like the corresponding Hebrew preposition (be I think) even though it has a wider usage than the Greek preposition does, so I'm not willing to rule out a meaning like "upon." And I'm not sure exactly what metaphorical meaning "heart" has here (I don't want to let modern usage mislead me and anyway, I can see a few possibilities that make sense), but I suspect that too would go back to the Hebrew word.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, it has everything to do with its Hebrew basis. Hebrew simply tells, "people would not put their heart upon us," meaning they would not care. I was puzzled why Greek changed the "heart", originally an object, to the subject. But in fact your explanation helps me make sense of it. Thanks a lot!

modus.irrealis
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Re: Help on translation plz

Post by modus.irrealis »

Perhaps the Hebrew text behind this translation was different from the current Hebrew text and the one behind the Septuagint (which may have been the same in this case). I managed to track the passage and if you look at http://books.google.ca/books?id=7ihVAAA ... #PPA316,M1 later in the verse it has οὐ θήσουσιν εἰς ἡμᾶς καρδίαν which is very similar to the Septuagint's οὐ θήσουσιν ἐφ' ἡμᾶς καρδίαν which occurs twice in the verse. Now I can't understand the Hebrew but I can see at http://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/online- ... 854095a7d/ that it also has the same phrase occur twice, so it would be odd, I'd say, if Lucian translated the same phrase in two totally different ways in the same verse. So it does look to me like Lucian had a different Hebrew text before him than the one we have today.

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