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about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

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about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:35 am

What do you do when you encounter a verb difficult to find in the dictionary?

arne^sastho^ heauton kai arato^ ton stauron autou kath' he^meran kai akoloutheito^ moi.
let him deny himself and lift up the cross of himself daily and follow me.

I looked up dictionary for [arato^].
But I couldn't find its entry.
There was [arao^] in the entry, which meant "pray", a version of [araomai].
And I find in the grammar book that [ti^mao^] inflects like [ti^ma^to^] in the imperative sg.3, which resembles [arato^].
So I guessed the meaning of the sentence above like "let him deny himself and pray for the pain(cross) on himself every day....".

But the interlinear has
let him deny himself and lift up the cross of himself daily and follow me.
defining [arato^] as [airo^] (or haireo?).
So I looked up dictionary (the Liddel & Scott Intermediate) and see the entry, but I couldn't find the imperative form.

So, there is nothing I can do further.
Please give me advice on what I should do in the circumstance like this.





I can't fix my Internet Explorer to properly display polytonic Greek.
So if you type Greek sentences, please type in BetaCode or one near it.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:38 pm

I have Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista Home Premium, and I can see Greek fonts. From the IE menu, select View | Encoding. What is your encoding selection? I have "Unicode (UTF-8)". Also, under Tools | Internet Options | General | Fonts, I have Times New Roman and Courier New. Hope this helps.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:38 pm

My copy of the Little Liddell lists ἆρον (a^ron) as the imperative 1st sg. of αἴρω (airo^).

I assume that you are reading the New Testament. A version with Strong or Goodrick-Kohlenberger numbers, and a matching concordance, would probably help immensely.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Essorant » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:05 am

You may wish to get your hands on a little book called "Complete Handbook of Greek Verbs". It alphabetically lists wellnigh every verb-form, so all you need to do is look up that specific form, and it indicates what verbform it is and the verb to which it belongs.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:10 am

Essorant wrote:You may wish to get your hands on a little book called "Complete Handbook of Greek Verbs".


Caveat emptor. All the descriptive abbreviations are in Italian, although I understand from Amazon that some editions have a key to the abbreviations in English.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby thesaurus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:20 am

Junya, as with Whitaker's Words and Latin, there are programs you can use online to parse verbs. Although Greek does not seem to have a program as efficient and free as Whitaker, the Perseus website is a reliable source.

Here is the Greek Morphology study tool:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/mo ... lang=greek

Of course this can't help you unless you're at a computer. Greek must have been a much more difficult language to study even just 15 years ago.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Essorant » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:33 am

Lex,

Indeed, my book has a key to the abbreviations. But even if it didn't, one shall not have much difficulty, for the abbreviations are 95% of the time the same as the English. I don't know Italian, but it is easy enough to understand what aor. =aoristo, ind. = indicativo, imp. =imperativo, inf. = infinitivo, etc. mean. :)
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby IreneY » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:46 am

Well, I guess I'm a bit too "traditional". I do as my mother taught me: Check the ending to determine mood, person etc if it is not clear by context (in some cases of course I'll have more than one possible answers but not all that many) . Check the beginning, determine if there are possible changes (esp. if it starts with a vowel. Make the necessary adjustments and check all possible entries.
The only problem with this of course is when you have an irregular verb and you haven't memorised the necessary forms although usually you have enough data to scan through a few irregular verbs to find the right one. If I don't ( ὁράω -ῶ [Hοράω- Hορ/ω] comes to mind for instance; you don't know the different tenses, you are in trouble) then I ask, or, in this days, google the term, or go to Perseus.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:33 am

Lex,

my Intermediate too has the entry [a^ron].
But I wouldn't be able to find [a^ron] entry from [arato^].
I want to know how you search out [a^ron].
Is it backed up by your thorough knowledge of inflection?

I read New Testament, as a training (I am using Greek-English Interlinear Bible). What I really want to read is philosophical texts.

And thank you about font.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:34 am

Essorant,

thank you about the "Complete Handbook Of Greek Verbs".
I have a copy of "All The Greek Verbs" by the same author Marinone.
Is this book (that I have) helps?
I have never used it since the day I bought it, because I wanted to try learning Greek without the help of it.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:35 am

Lex,

my Marinone "All The Greek Verbs" has descriptions like,

aor.1 pt. m. N sg.
impf. ind. m. 1 sg.

But occasionally there is descriptions written in Italian like,

togliere e cercare sotto l'iniziale risultante
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:36 am

thesaurus,

I use Perseus sometimes,
but my computer is set in the living room,
so when my family members are there, and watching tv or talking with each other,
I can't study there and can't use the computer for study.......
So I can't rely on the computer very much for my study.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:37 am

Irene,

I'm doing in the same way as you.
So, the conclusion is that when I have nothing to do after all that process you said, I have no other choice but to ask others or go to Perseus or use Marinone?
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:09 am

Junya wrote:my Intermediate too has the entry [a^ron].
But I wouldn't be able to find [a^ron] entry from [arato^].
I want to know how you search out [a^ron].
Is it backed up by your thorough knowledge of inflection?


I don't have a thorough knowledge of inflections (or I wouldn't have mistakenly said that [a^ron] is the imperative 1st person singular. It's the 2nd; I don't think there is a 1st. Oops. :oops: And I forgot to say that it's the 1st aorist imperative.). I just looked up [airo^] after I saw it in your post. [a^ron] is listed under the entry for [airo^] as the 1st aorist imperative in both my copy of Little Liddell and my PDF copy of the Intermediate Liddell/Scott.

But, to try to answer your question of how I would try to find the answer if you hadn't already given it to me... I suppose I would have started with the ending [-ato^]. Then I could look here (or in a grammar book) to try to find this ending. The 8th selection on the verb chart in the web page (here) would tell me that [-ato^] is a 1st aorist imperative active 3rd person singular ending. Then I would change the ending to 2nd person singular [-on], based on the chart, to get [a^ron]. Then I would have a word I could look up in my lexicon, hoping that I get lucky. :D

Junya wrote:I read New Testament, as a training (I am using Greek-English Interlinear Bible). What I really want to read is philosophical texts.


Which philosophers are you interested in?

Junya wrote:And thank you about font.


Do^ itashimashite.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:30 pm

Lex,
that's what I wanted to hear, the way you actually search for a word using grammar chart as well as dictionary.
Basically I do the same,
but the method is not established in me yet, so I sometimes do as you do, but sometimes completely forget to do so.



I wrote: I read New Testament, as a training (I am using Greek-English Interlinear Bible). What I really want to read is philosophical texts.


Lex wrote: Which philosophers are you interested in?



Aristotle and the commentators on his book "Peri Psyche^s".
I have translated Latin commentaries on "De Anima (=Peri Psyche^s)" into Japanese for about a year and a half.
Starting from Aquinas, then Averroes in Latin, Philoponos in Latin, Themistius in Latin, and some others available on the internet.
I think I'm better than scholars as a translator, because scholars' translations are incoherent as usual, while I care much about coherency.
I also want to read Plotinus, whose books' translations are so incoherent that I can't understand at all.
My ambition is to make coherent, understandable, readable translations of those philosophers.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:18 pm

Junya wrote:Lex,
Basically I do the same,
but the method is not established in me yet, so I sometimes do as you do, but sometimes completely forget to do so.


I'm lucky. My current focus is on Homer's Iliad, and I have found a version of the Iliad that lists the lexical form of all words, plus morphological information.

Mounce's Greek/English NT might be of similar use to you; it has "morphological tags" on all the words, I believe. I found a used copy of his Reverse English/Greek NT that does, anyway, but you probably wouldn't want the Reverse one. For example, under the word [dedotai] it has v.rpi.3s (which decodes to verb, perfect passive indicative, 3rd person singular) and 1443 (a G/K concordance number so you can look up the lexical form).

Junya wrote:Aristotle and the commentators on his book "Peri Psyche^s".
I have translated Latin commentaries on "De Anima (=Peri Psyche^s)" into Japanese for about a year and a half.
Starting from Aquinas, then Averroes in Latin, Philoponos in Latin, Themistius in Latin, and some others available on the internet.
I think I'm better than scholars as a translator, because scholars' translations are incoherent as usual, while I care much about coherency.
I also want to read Plotinus, whose books' translations are so incoherent that I can't understand at all.
My ambition is to make coherent, understandable, readable translations of those philosophers.


Wow. I am having trouble learning one foreign language, and you're dealing with three (including learning Greek from English books). :shock:
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby thesaurus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:47 pm

Junya wrote:I think I'm better than scholars as a translator, because scholars' translations are incoherent as usual, while I care much about coherency.
I also want to read Plotinus, whose books' translations are so incoherent that I can't understand at all.
My ambition is to make coherent, understandable, readable translations of those philosophers.


If you don't mind me asking, are you referring more to Japanese or English translations that you want to improve on? What is the state of the translation of the classics and philosophy into Japanese? Are many Japanese interested in Latin or Greek, or Western literature/philosophy/medieval era? I imagine it might correspond to Westerners' knowledge of Japanese philosophy, literature, and history: just a few specialists and enthusiasts here and there.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Essorant » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:32 am

I have never used it since the day I bought it, because I wanted to try learning Greek without the help of it.


Well, why did you even buy it then?

Even after studying Greek for quite a time I still find moments of ignorance or forgetfulness, therefore I ended up buying that little book. Whenever I use it is as helpful as it seems meant to be and allows me not to be delayed too long from reading something for struggling to find out an uncouth verbform.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby edonnelly » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:38 am

thesaurus wrote:Junya, as with Whitaker's Words and Latin, there are programs you can use online to parse verbs. Although Greek does not seem to have a program as efficient and free as Whitaker, the Perseus website is a reliable source.

Here is the Greek Morphology study tool:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/mo ... lang=greek

Of course this can't help you unless you're at a computer. Greek must have been a much more difficult language to study even just 15 years ago.


If you like Perseus, try Diogenes -- it has the Perseus tools but installs locally on your computer. It will do morphological searches and will give you the full dictionary definitions. Does Latin, too, not just Greek. Of course it doesn't have any of the Perseus texts or anything (other than dictionaries), but for looking up stuff it's great because it's so fast. Doesn't solve the problem about needing to be at a computer, though. Maybe I can get it to run on my phone...
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby paulusnb » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:05 am

And there is KALOS. http://www.kalos-software.com/
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:52 pm

Lex,

you wrote:
I found a used copy of his Reverse English/Greek NT that does, anyway, but you probably wouldn't want the Reverse one.


I have heard about the reverse dictionary from a Japanese pastor,
who was teaching Greek in his blog last year.
He recommended the use of Analytical and Concordance to the learners of bible Greek.
He says learners of Greek only have to memorize the minimum grammar,
and after memorizing it, at once they can start to read New Testament with the help of dictionary and Analytical.
After it, all they have to do is continue reading, The more they read, the more experienced they will become.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:00 pm

thesaurus, sorry, I wrote too long......

I wrote:
I also want to read Plotinus, whose books' translations are so incoherent that I can't understand at all.
My ambition is to make coherent, understandable, readable translations of those philosophers.


You wrote:
What is the state of the translation of the classics and philosophy into Japanese?


In both Japanese and English, translations of philosophy (and of classical literature, I think, though I have read few of them) are often literal, word-by-word translations,
and they are very very awkward.
And not only each sentence is awkward,
but the translation of conjunctions are unreasonable and false,
and each sentences are so translated that the whole text is utterly incoherent.
So the readers don't understand the meaning at all.

Once, when I didn't know Latin and was reading only translations, I met with that difficulty.
But I thought the reason I didn't understand the texts was
because the older texts were formerly written that (apparently incoherent) way, and the logic of the ancients and the medievals might be different from my age's,
or because I was too fool to understand philosophical writings.

Then after I learned Latin and began to read the old texts myself,
I found those texts were in fact coherent and understandable.
The texts I have seen are not so many,
but I can believe all the ancient texts are written with the same, understandable logic as our age's, and really coherent.
So I know now that the bad one was the translators.





You wrote,
If you don't mind me asking, are you referring more to Japanese or English translations that you want to improve on?


I'm translating in Japanese.
But I'm maybe ready to translate in English.
Only, I'm still unskilled in English, with minimum vocabulary,
though in philosophy translation you don't need much vocabulary, it's the custom to use the simplest words.





You wrote:
Are many Japanese interested in Latin or Greek, or Western literature/philosophy/medieval era?


I don't think so.
And students majoring in philosophy like me are considered odd persons.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:02 pm

Essorant,

you wrote:
Even after studying Greek for quite a time I still find moments of ignorance or forgetfulness, therefore I ended up buying that little book. Whenever I use it is as helpful


then, I will use it from now on.
When even the experienced people use it, why don't I ?
Why I didn't use the Marinone?
It's because I am a little ascetic. I have abstained from the Marinone.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:03 pm

Hi, edonnelly, paulusnb,

thank you for such great tools. :D
I want to get a notebook computer to make a full use of Diogenes !
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:25 pm

Junya wrote:I have heard about the reverse dictionary from a Japanese pastor,
who was teaching Greek in his blog last year.


I wasn't referring to a reverse dictionary, but a reverse interlinear English/Greek New Testament. The English text is the main text. The Greek text, with word order re-arranged to match the English translation, is in between the English lines. This is the reverse of the ordinary interlinear, which has the Greek text in the original order and the English words re-arranged to match the Greek. This is OK for studying words, but not for learning the subtleties of Greek word ordering.

Anyway, I don't think this is for a serious student of Koine Greek. The ordinary Greek/English interlinear, with morphological information and concordance numbers, like this, would be better. This is an example.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:48 am

Lex,

my interlinear doesn't have the concordance numbers and morphological information.
I read it searching for the type of inflection of verbs (and nouns) by grammar book charts and dictionary, with the help of interlinear English translation.

The Zondervan one you recommend seems better, and would make my learning easier.

Do you think the easier the better also in studying?
I myself am beginning to think so,
though I had wrongly thought from childhood the more you make effort with pain the more efficiently you grow.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:07 pm

Junya wrote:Do you think the easier the better also in studying?
I myself am beginning to think so,
though I had wrongly thought from childhood the more you make effort with pain the more efficiently you grow.


Well... I'm not sure I'm the best person to ask, because I'm not very good at any foreign language, but I'll answer as best I can. The attitude towards pain that you described is (I think) a very typical Japanese attitude, and it may build stronger character, but I'm not sure it will help you learn Greek faster. For example, with looking up words, it depends on whether going through the pain of puzzling out the lexical form of a word helps you memorize it, its meaning, its conjugational ending, etc. If so, then maybe the pain is worth it.

For me, it doesn't help memorization. For me, "repetitio est mater memoriae". I have my computer set up so I can switch between English and Greek keyboards easily. Then, as I do the exercises in the textbook I am using, I copy all the vocabulary to word lists in text files, one file for verbs, one file for nouns, etc. Then, for example, I make a copy of the verb file, and in that copied file I conjugate every verb with every tense that I currently know. This is repetitious and boring, but I think it helps a lot with my conjugations.

Another thing that helps me is using index cards as flash cards. I know, it sounds childish, but it helps. For instance, with verbs, I put the lexical form on the blank side. Then I put the English translation on the other side, on the first line, and then all the principal parts I know, one per line. When I learn more principal parts, I add them to the cards.

(PS I still think it's good to know how to find the lexical form of a word in Greek. I'm just not sure that puzzling out every word is the most efficient use of your time.)
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Bert » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:38 am

Junya wrote:Lex,

my interlinear doesn't have the concordance numbers and morphological information.
I read it searching for the type of inflection of verbs (and nouns) by grammar book charts and dictionary, with the help of interlinear English translation.

The Zondervan one you recommend seems better, and would make my learning easier.

Do you think the easier the better also in studying?
I myself am beginning to think so,
though I had wrongly thought from childhood the more you make effort with pain the more efficiently you grow.

Reading an interlinear is easier than reading Greek text without an interlinear but it is not as effective. IMO you will be doing better reading the Greek with a translation beside you instead of having every word translated for you right below it.
When using an interlinear it is too easy to glance at the English word without even trying to understand Greek.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:56 am

Bert wrote:Reading an interlinear is easier than reading Greek text without an interlinear but it is not as effective. IMO you will be doing better reading the Greek with a translation beside you instead of having every word translated for you right below it.
When using an interlinear it is too easy to glance at the English word without even trying to understand Greek.


Bert, this guy has a copy of Marinone's All The Greek Verbs, but has never used it because didn't want to feel like he was cheating!

Besides, all you have to do to avoid cheating with an interlinear is cover up everything below the line you are reading with a piece of paper.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:49 am

Lex, thank you very much for a studying tip.

you wrote:
The attitude towards pain that you described is (I think) a very typical Japanese attitude,


Yes, you are correct.
It's very typical among Japanese to think that the harder and with more pain you endeavor, the steadier you will grow.
I hate this thought now, because it's very bad for health.
You can never keep a thing on for a long time with this thought, for it's too painful = unhealthy.




So, you think it's more efficient and a light work to separate the study for word memorizing from the study for reading.

But, I presently don't intend to memorize the meanings and forms of words at all.
Because I have very very poor memory.
I forget as soon as I see.
I can't hope but that the meanings of words by themselves automatically may sit in my mind.
But I also think that as I keep studying for a long time and as the time goes on, a lot of necessary words will automatically take root in my mind.

So, what I wanted to get in this post is the tip of hunting down in the dictionary in an as-easy-as-possible manner all the verbs I encounter on texts.
And it turned out that experienced people also use Perseus and Marinone other than the grammar chart and the Intermediate dictionary.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:06 am

Bert,

you wrote
you will be doing better reading the Greek with a translation beside you instead of having every word translated for you right below it.
When using an interlinear it is too easy .......... without even trying to understand Greek.



Yes, I like to study reading with a translation, not with an interlinear.
I did it in Latin study (because there is no interlinear thing in Latin).
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:48 am

Junya wrote:It's very typical among Japanese to think that the harder and with more pain you endeavor, the steadier you will grow.
I hate this thought now, because it's very bad for health.
You can never keep a thing on for a long time with this thought, for it's too painful = unhealthy.


There are two side to this Japanese attitude. One side is perserverance and work ethic. These are good things, and I don't think you have any problems in this area.

The other side is doing things the hard way, just because it's the hard way. This is just a waste of your time, and therefore, your life. I once read this story. I forget where I read it, so I may misremember it or embellish it, but I think you'll understand the idea:

There was once a martial arts master who, after practicing for 20 years, mastered the art of walking on water. He was very proud of himself, and so went to his teacher, a very old and revered master who he hadn't seen since he became a master himself, to show him what he could do. The old teacher lived in a shack next to a river, so the master walked across the river so that his old teacher could see him. He said, "Teacher, what do you think of my new technique? It took 20 years to learn, but I've finally mastered it!" His teacher said, "You spent 20 years learning to walk on water, so you could finally cross the river and visit your poor old teacher again? Hmmph! You could have paid the ferryman a few pennies and accomplished the same thing!"


Junya wrote:So, you think it's more efficient and a light work to separate the study for word memorizing from the study for reading.


It is easier for me. But if my suggestions don't work for you, please ignore them. My main point is, don't waste your time doing things the hard way. Figure out what your main goal is. Is it to learn to read Greek? Or do you only care about making good translations of certain philosophical books, and you don't care if you forget the Greek afterwards? Then use the tools that are available to achieve your goal without wasting years of your life.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:19 am

Lex,

your insight is great about the Japanese character of mind.

:lol: I understand and agree with the martial arts master story.

you wrote:
My main point is, don't waste your time doing things the hard way. Figure out what your main goal is.


Yes, I think so too.
And I think, as the martial arts master story tells, it's the same if you reach the goal whether though the harder way or through the easier way.
(So now I understand that, if I easily learn Greek using the Marinone and Perseus, or if I learn Greek taking great pain all alone without them, it's the same,
and the latter way consumes and damages my health more and takes more time from my life.)
I am still, from habit, wont to fall into the hard way, though (like abstaining from the Marinone and, to tell the truth, from Perseus too).

And, I'm a little unstable in keeping the eye on my goal.
My goal is make good translations of philosophical texts, but I also want to be the true master of Greek who can also read and translate other things than philosophy. (So in Latin too, and for that reason, I cannot confine myself only to philosophical Latin texts, but I try to read other things, to become a master of Lain.......)
Yes, for now, I should train myself for reading and translating the philosophical stuff only.



Thank you for a lot of advices ! I could have a reflection on myself with your word.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Bert » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:58 pm

Lex wrote:
Bert wrote:Reading an interlinear is easier than reading Greek text without an interlinear but it is not as effective. IMO you will be doing better reading the Greek with a translation beside you instead of having every word translated for you right below it.
When using an interlinear it is too easy to glance at the English word without even trying to understand Greek.


Bert, this guy has a copy of Marinone's All The Greek Verbs, but has never used it because didn't want to feel like he was cheating!

Besides, all you have to do to avoid cheating with an interlinear is cover up everything below the line you are reading with a piece of paper.

I am not discouraging an interlinear because it is too easy but because it is not very effective.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Essorant » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:56 pm

The first reading-text I used was an interlinear edition of Anabasis and found it very effective for me at the time. It helps one see the language at work through long and continuous reading where he/she is also shown how to deal with every word individually, so that he/she learns how to interpret the manners of the language and establish a good reading method by seeing the technique that the interlinear translation uses. From following the technique of the interlinear translation one learns better how to have a technique in the first place, from which one may then use and build upon that technique more independantly.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby annis » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:34 pm

Junya wrote:It's very typical among Japanese to think that the harder and with more pain you endeavor, the steadier you will grow.


It is also common among Anglo-American academic classicists of a certain generation.

I had a temper tantrum on my blog about this a while ago, when some classics bloggers tried to find the silver lining behind the Perseus web site being brought down by security problems, by saying we should sometimes study without these tools. This is madness.

Listen, we should use every single tool we can get our hands on. Before I had internet access and these wonderful tools, I spent probably months of my life on pointless toil paging through dictionaries. If you spend a half hour with dictionary and grammar trying to hunt down a verb, and then you just make a margin note in your text, or then just move on without any extra work, it's no better than using Perseus, Diogenes or one of those verb books. Use the tool, then spend the time you saved trying to find an irregular form of a verb you may never have seen before instead learning what you can about the word.

Some people like flash cards, but I have a bunch of little notebooks filled with vocabulary and grammar notes. I carry one with me almost always, because you never know when you'll have a few minutes to look over some words. Every time you use a tool to help you find a word, copy that word, and maybe some extra notes on it, into your notebook (or whatever). Use the verb book, but write out all the principle parts, and spend 5 minutes looking at the full L&S article Perseus or Diogenes gives you to learn some of the main ways the word is used. See if your grammar has something to say about oddities in its principal parts that might help you recognize similarly irregular verbs in the future.

All of these student helps are great so long as you use them as a starting point for deeper study rather than an end in themselves.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Lex » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:40 pm

Junya wrote:your insight is great about the Japanese character of mind.


Ah shucks! All this flattery would give me an inflated ego, if I didn't already have one. :wink: :roll:

Seriously, though, I spent a year in Japan in my youth. The main thing I learned about the Japanese is that there is some truth to the Western stereotype of Asians as "inscrutable". But I did learn a little.

Junya wrote:Yes, for now, I should train myself for reading and translating the philosophical stuff only.


If that is your current goal, maybe you should set aside the New Testament and start translating [Peri Psyche^s] right away. I would bet money that the words and terms that Aristotle uses are also used often in the commentators that you want to translate; the words and terms in the New Testament maybe not so much. So maybe the most efficient use of your time would be to master the common words and grammatical constructs in [Peri Psyche^s] using Perseus, Diogenes, etc., in addition to your dictionary.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:38 pm

Bert,

you wrote:
I am not discouraging an interlinear because it is too easy but because it is not very effective.


I also use such books and web sites where you can read the Greek text on the left, the English translation on the right, like Nicomachean Ethics with Ross' translation.
There I can think of better reading by making use of the translation given.

I am also trying reading Greek texts by myself alone.

I do the interlinear-reading, or the translation-attached-text-reading when I don't feel I have enough vigor.
When I am vigorous, I read the original text with no attached-translation.
Last edited by Junya on Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:39 pm

Essorant,

I use the interlinear with just the same intention as yours.
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Re: about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:41 pm

annis,

you wrote:
some classics bloggers tried to find the silver lining behind the Perseus web site being brought down by security problems, by saying we should sometimes study without these tools. This is madness.


I decide to throw away that ascetic attitude.
I decide to use every tool I can put my hands on !




you wrote:
Some people like flash cards, but I have a bunch of little notebooks filled with vocabulary and grammar notes.


To tell the truth, I have never spent time on word memorizing, even from junior high when I started to study English.
Maybe that's the reason I have a very poor vocabulary.
For that reason, I am a little reluctant to start word study, .......... but flash card use, or notebook use, anyway I would have to start !
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