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about the use of neuter

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about the use of neuter

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:34 am

ho^s gar esti megalou kai mikrou hyle^ tis,
[That is, as there is one matter for a big thing and a little thing,]
kai kouphou kai bareos kai to^n allo^n enantiote^to^n homoio^s,
[and in like manner (there is one matter) for a light thing and a heavy thing, and for other oppositenesses,]
ho (with an accent mark, that is, a relative pronoun) dektikon auto^n esti para meros,
[??? which (hyle^ ???) is receptive of them (light and heavy, big and small) in turn, ???]
houto^s kai te^s en kro^masin enantiote^tos hyle^ to diaphanes.
[so too the matter for oppositeness in colors (like the matter for black and white), is the transparency.]
[so too for oppositeness in colors (like the matter for black and white), there is a matter, the transparency.]



Hi.
I don't understand the "ho" (with an accent mark), and "dektikon".
Why are they neuter?
I can't find any word that they would be referring to other than "hyle^ ".
But hyle^ is feminine.
So please show me the right reading.
I can't fix my pc's browser to display Greek alphabet properly, so please type in BetaCode or in the way you type when you use Perseus.
Last edited by Junya on Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:11 am

The following sentence goes like this.

eiper oun pa^n so^ma kro^matos esti dektikon, pa^n kai diaphanes esti.
[If all the corporeal things are receptive of color, then all the corporeal things are transparent.]

So, I guess the above "ho" and "dektikon" refer to "so^ma".
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby IreneY » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:46 am

Just found the text it a Google book (here).
I should really be in bed but I think that the first instance it's just that "esti" here means "exists" (as there is some hyle of the big [things]...)
The second one goes to "diaphanes". I think.
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:39 pm

Hi Irene Y.
I' don't very much get what you mean. Could you explain a bit more?

ho (with an accent mark, that is, a relative pronoun) dektikon auto^n esti para meros,

Do you mean I should understand this passage like this?

[and that (=ho) there exists a thing which receives them (light and heavy, big and small) in turn,]

But "the thing which receives them" is obviously hyle^. (And the hyle^ for opposite colors is the transparency.)
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby IreneY » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:49 pm

Well, I just re-read it and my apologies for being so obscure but I really did need to be in bed. Well, it goes like this:
"Ως εστί ύλη τίς μεγάλου και μικρού [ο δεκτικόν αυτών εστί παρά μέρος ], ούτως το διαφανές εστί ύλη της εναντιότητος τής εν χρώμασι". I think this is what got the writer confused really. It should have been "ή δεκτική αυτών εστί" I guess but having switched subject he switched gender without noticing.
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:24 pm

Nothing to add really, except that using the neuter relative pronoun where it's not in strict agreement was common enough that Smyth mentions it in 2502.d:
The relative may stand in the neuter, in agreement with the notion implied in the antecedent rather than with the antecedent itself; as διὰ τὴν πλεονεξίαν, ὃ πᾶσα φύσις διώκειν πέφυκεν ὡς ἀγαθόν for the sake of profit, a thing which every nature is inclined to pursue as a good P. R. 359c.
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby Junya » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:23 am

Hi, modus.irrealis.
That explains my example.
But I want to hear if there is a more solid, secure explanation that expains my example more powerfully.
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby Junya » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:25 am

Irene Y, your Greek font is properly displayed in my browzer, while other people's Greek font isn't.
Why?

I thought at first just like you say, that is, ho dektikon is a mistake of he^ dektike^. But couldn't believe my thought, since I'm just a beginner in reading Greek.
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby IreneY » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:17 am

Mistakes like that happen all the time in Greek (of all ages really) and I bet they happen in all languages were grammatical gender is alive and kicking. As for the Greek, I have no idea. My Opera browser refuses point blank to show Greek of any variety typed in this site although it has no problem whatsoever with other sites. IE and Firefox seem to handle things better, having only the occasional problem with ancient Greek (those characters that are different than modern that is; breathing marks, grave accent, that kind of thing).
Maybe the fact that out of sheer laziness I haven't installed Greek polytonic and I used the modern Greek keyboard (note the lack of any accent mark but oxeia and the complete lack of breathing marks) made the difference on your browser? As I said no idea really!
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Re: about the use of neuter

Postby Junya » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:26 pm

I see. Thank you, you are very kind, Irene. :D :D :D
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