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Demosthenes De Corona 35

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Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby vir litterarum » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:47 am

πάσαις δ' αἰτίαις καὶ βλασφημίαις ἅμα τούτου κεχρημένου ἀνάγκη κἀμοὶ πρὸς ἕκαστα τῶν κατηγορημένων μίκρ' ἀποκρίνασθαι. τίνες οὖν ἦσαν οἱ παρὰ τούτου λόγοι τότε ῥηθέντες, καὶ δι' οὓς ἅπαντ' ἀπώλετο;
34-35

For what reason is the participial phrase τότε ῥηθέντες not attributive in this sentence. I don't see how it can be circumstantial in this context. It seems to me the question should read τίνες οὖν ἦσαν οἱ παρὰ τούτου λόγοι οἱ τότε ῥηθέντες instead, "the words, the ones spoken by this one." How could this be translated as a circumstantial participle?
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby Swth\r » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:44 pm

Hi,
why do you take for granted that the participle in not attributive? :?:
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby vir litterarum » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:28 pm

Because it's not in between the article and noun it modifies, nor is the article repeated.
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby Swth\r » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:49 am

An attributive participle is not always with the article. The principle is that any participle with article should be attributive, not that the attributive participle should always be with article. :wink:

Some examples that I have just found quickly searching in Thuc. and Xenoph. corpora (I just searched for "ἁνθρώπους"):

ἢν δὲ χρονίσῃ πρὶν ἐς ὄψιν ἐλθεῖν, τῇ γνώμῃ ἀναθαρσοῦντας ἀνθρώπους καὶ τῇ ὄψει καταφρονεῖν μᾶλλον. (not sure about this though...)

τὸ γὰρ ἀποκινδυνεύειν πρὸς ἀνθρώπους ἀπονενοημένους οὐ πρὸς ἐκείνων μᾶλλον ἦν ἔτι ἢ πρὸς τῶν Ἀθηναίων

οἱ οὖν περὶ τὸν Θηραμένην παρεσκεύασαν ἀνθρώπους μέλανα ἱμάτια ἔχοντας καὶ ἐν χρῷ κεκαρμένους πολλοὺς ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ἑορτῇ,

ἐνταῦθα ἐπιπίπτει χιὼν ἄπλετος, ὥστε ἀπέκρυψε καὶ τὰ ὅπλα καὶ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους κατακειμένους

μᾶλλον ἢ πρὸς ἰσχυρὰ χωρία καὶ ἀνθρώπους παρεσκευασμένους μάχεσθαι.

ἅμα δ' ἔδειξε συντετριμμένους ἀνθρώπους καὶ σκέλη καὶ πλευράς.

ἔπειτα κολάσουσιν οἱ χρηστοὶ τοὺς πονηροὺς καὶ βουλεύσουσιν οἱ χρηστοὶ περὶ τῆς πόλεως καὶ οὐκ ἐάσουσι μαινομένους ἀνθρώπους βουλεύειν οὐδὲ λέγειν οὐδὲ ἐκκλησιάζειν.


Cheers!
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby vir litterarum » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:13 am

But, with the exception of your fourth to last example, the noun ἁνθρώπους has no article with it at all. My problem is that there is an article with λόγοι, but the participle is placed outside of the article noun complex. Look at this section from Smyth, in which he discusses the position of the attributive participle.

§1166. Position of an attributive participle with its modifiers (A = article, N = noun, P = participle, D = word or words dependent on P): (1) APND: τὸν ἐφεστηκότα κίνδῡνον τῇ πόλει the danger impending over the State D. 18.176 . (2) APDN: τοὺς περιεστηκότας τῇ πόλει κινδύ̄νους D. 18.179. (3) ADPN: τὸν τότε τῇ πόλει περιστάντα κίνδῡνον D. 18.188. (4) NADP: ἕτοιμον ἔχει δύναμιν τὴν . . . καταδουλωσουένην ἄπαντας he has in readiness a force to enslave all D. 8.46 .


In all of these instances, the participle comes between the article and the noun it modifies, or it follows the article that comes after the noun.
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:08 pm

This reminds me of our discussion at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7794 especially the quote from Cooper which says that a participle may be pushed into predicative position without necessarily changing its meaning. This seems to apply in this case, since λόγοι has multiple modifiers. (It seems that the usual grammar/textbook description of predicate vs. attributive oversimplifies the actual situation.)

Maybe you can force reading it as a circumstantial participle -- as equivalent to a temporal clause, "what were the speeches from him, when they were said at that time" but the force of the participle seems to me to be like an attributive participle.
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby Swth\r » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 pm

There is a possibility that it has to do with the fact that "λόγοι" is something like "cognate" subject of "ρηθέντες"(but let me give a little bit more thought on it). It seems like "ρηθέντες" is not strongly needed in meaning; "οἱ παρὰ τούτου τότε λόγοι" means almost the same... Note that the prepositional phrase is not "ὑπὸ τούτου", so it can be read as not exactly the agent, but rather the source of speech. Perhaps it has to do with that... :?

Look also in Smyth 2052 and 2053. It is not of course the situation,but you can have some clue about cases where attributive participles stand with no article.

One more case that I have in mind is from "Anabasis", I don't remember the passage, but you can easily find it, it is at the time that Cyrus wants to show the army to the queen of Cilicians.

εἶχον δὲ χιτῶνας φοινικοῦς καὶ κράνη χαλκᾶ καὶ τὰς ἁσπίδας ἑκκεκαλυμμένας. (attributive participle in predicative position)

The participle is for sure attributive.(Certainly, in my opinion :lol: )
Last edited by Swth\r on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Demosthenes De Corona 35

Postby vir litterarum » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:24 pm

Not that mess again, modus! lol. but you're right. I'm not disagreeing with you Swith\r. I just had always learned that an attributive participle always must be accompanied by the article, but it is a stretch to take this circumstantially. I seem to remember some instances in Thucydides where attributive adjectives were put in the predicate position for "emphasis" as the editor of the Cambridge edition asserted. As usual usage defines grammar, so I'll take it attributively; it just makes me uncomfortable.
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Postby Swth\r » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:30 pm

vir litterarum wrote:Not that mess again, modus! lol. but you're right. I'm not disagreeing with you Swith\r. I just had always learned that an attributive participle always must be accompanied by the article, but it is a stretch to take this circumstantially. I seem to remember some instances in Thucydides where attributive adjectives were put in the predicate position for "emphasis" as the editor of the Cambridge edition asserted. As usual usage defines grammar, so I'll take it attributively; it just makes me uncomfortable.


Ι added something in previous post.

We all do feel the same when studying language(s). Grammars are just compasses. Important equipment but just compasses. :D

Ἔδιτ: Ὄνομά μοι Σωτὴρ ἑστί. (=Swth\r, not Swith\r :wink: ) :lol:
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