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Plato Kleitofon syntax

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Plato Kleitofon syntax

Postby Tempus_1991 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:37 pm

Χαίρετε Φίλτατοι άνθρωποι.(No polytonics)
Could you define the syntax of these specific words with bold at this text?
[407β] λέγων: “ποῖ φέρεσθε, ὤνθρωποι; καὶ ἀγνοεῖτε οὐδὲν τῶν δεόντων πράττοντες, οἵτινες χρημάτων μὲν πέρι τὴν πᾶσαν σπουδὴν ἔχετε ὅπως ὑμῖν ἔσται, τῶν δ᾽ ὑέων οἷς ταῦτα παραδώσετε ὅπως ἐπιστήσονται χρῆσθαι δικαίως τούτοις, οὔτε διδασκάλους αὐτοῖς εὑρίσκετε τῆς δικαιοσύνης, εἴπερ μαθητόν—εἰ δὲ μελετητόν τε καὶ ἀσκητόν, οἵτινες ἐξασκήσουσιν καὶ ἐκμελετήσουσιν ἱκανῶς—οὐδέ γ᾽ ἔτι πρότερον ὑμᾶς αὐτοὺς οὕτως ἐθεραπεύσατε. ἀλλ᾽ ὁρῶντες γράμματα[407ξ] καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ γυμναστικὴν ὑμᾶς τε αὐτοὺς καὶ τοὺς παῖδας ὑμῶν ἱκανῶς μεμαθηκότας— δὴ παιδείαν ἀρετῆς εἶναι τελέαν ἡγεῖσθε—κἄπειτα οὐδὲν ἧττον κακοὺς γιγνομένους περὶ τὰ χρήματα, πῶς οὐ καταφρονεῖτε τῆς νῦν παιδεύσεως οὐδὲ ζητεῖτε οἵτινες ὑμᾶς παύσουσι ταύτης τῆς ἀμουσίας;


Thank You
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Re: Plato Kleitofon syntax

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:40 pm

Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean by define, so here are some comments that I hope can help.

Tempus_1991 wrote:ἀγνοεῖτε οὐδὲν τῶν δεόντων πράττοντες

I would take δεόντων with οὖδεν so οὐδὲν τῶν δεόντων = "not one of the things that should be done", and this together is the object of πράττοντες -- I understand the whole thing as being something like "You go wrong, in that you do nothing of what you should."

ὅπως ὑμῖν ἔσται

Here this is a dative of possession, i.e. ἔχω χρήματα = ἔστι μοι χρήματα

τῶν δ᾽ ὑέων οἷς ταῦτα παραδώσετε

οἷς is the indirect object of παραδώσετε, "the sons to whom you will hand down...

οὔτε διδασκάλους αὐτοῖς εὑρίσκετε τῆς δικαιοσύνης

Here the dative can just be translated as "for", so "teachers for them [the sons]"

ἀλλ᾽ ὁρῶντες γράμματα[407ξ] καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ γυμναστικὴν ὑμᾶς τε αὐτοὺς καὶ τοὺς παῖδας ὑμῶν ἱκανῶς μεμαθηκότας—

You could translate ὁρῶντες here as "seeing" or something like "while you see" -- it modifies the subject of καταφρονεῖτε and ζητεῖτε. For μεμαθηκότας, you use the participle with ὁρῶ to mean "that" -- you can think of it (if you let me mix Greek and English) as ὁρῶντες that γράμματα καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ γυμναστικὴν ὑμεῖς τε καὶ οἱ παῖδες ὑμῶν ἱκανῶς μεμαθήκατε. Note that γιγνομένους is in the same construction as μεμαθηκότας.

δὴ παιδείαν ἀρετῆς εἶναι τελέαν ἡγεῖσθε

ἅ refers back to γράμματα καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ γυμναστικὴν -- ἀρετῆς modifies παιδείαν, "education of virtue" or better "education in virtue".

οἵτινες ὑμᾶς παύσουσι ταύτης τῆς ἀμουσίας;

The genitive here is because παύω uses the genitive to indicate what you're stopping from, so "who will stop you from the lack of education", which isn't quite good English but the meaning should be clear.
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Re: Plato Kleitofon syntax

Postby Swth\r » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:36 pm

Tempus_1991 wrote:Χαίρετε Φίλτατοι άνθρωποι.(No polytonics)
Could you define the syntax of these specific words with bold at this text?
[407β] λέγων: “ποῖ φέρεσθε, ὤνθρωποι; καὶ ἀγνοεῖτε οὐδὲν τῶν δεόντων πράττοντες, οἵτινες χρημάτων μὲν πέρι τὴν πᾶσαν σπουδὴν ἔχετε ὅπως ὑμῖν ἔσται, τῶν δ᾽ ὑέων οἷς ταῦτα παραδώσετε ὅπως ἐπιστήσονται χρῆσθαι δικαίως τούτοις, οὔτε διδασκάλους αὐτοῖς εὑρίσκετε τῆς δικαιοσύνης, εἴπερ μαθητόν—εἰ δὲ μελετητόν τε καὶ ἀσκητόν, οἵτινες ἐξασκήσουσιν καὶ ἐκμελετήσουσιν ἱκανῶς—οὐδέ γ᾽ ἔτι πρότερον ὑμᾶς αὐτοὺς οὕτως ἐθεραπεύσατε. ἀλλ᾽ ὁρῶντες γράμματα[407ξ] καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ γυμναστικὴν ὑμᾶς τε αὐτοὺς καὶ τοὺς παῖδας ὑμῶν ἱκανῶς μεμαθηκότας— δὴ παιδείαν ἀρετῆς εἶναι τελέαν ἡγεῖσθε—κἄπειτα οὐδὲν ἧττον κακοὺς γιγνομένους περὶ τὰ χρήματα, πῶς οὐ καταφρονεῖτε τῆς νῦν παιδεύσεως οὐδὲ ζητεῖτε οἵτινες ὑμᾶς παύσουσι ταύτης τῆς ἀμουσίας;


Thank You

Hi!

τῶν δεόντων = genitive of the divided whole (partitive), depended on οὐδέν (Smyth 1306). It is also an attributive participle with the article (equal to a noun).
πράττοντες = supplementary participle, depended on ἀγνοεῖτε. Its subject is the implied subject ὑμεῖς.
ὑμῖν = dative of the possessor with ἔσται. (Smyth 1476)
οἷς = indirect object to παραδώσετε, the direct being ταῦτα.
αὐτοῖς = dative of advantage (Smyth 1481).
ὁρῶντες = circumstantial participle; its subject is ὑμεῖς (implied by the 2nd person of the verb οὐ καταφρονεῖτε), and it seems to denote concession (= even though you see that...).
μεμαθηκότας = supplementary participle, depended on ὁρῶντες. Its subjects are ὑμᾶς αὐτοὺς καὶ τοὺς παῖδας; the same with the participle γιγνομένους.
ἃ = the subject of the infinitive εἶναι. It is related to all previous substantives: γράμματα καὶ γυμναστικὴν καὶ μουσικὴν.
ἀρετῆς = objective genitive to παιδείαν.(not very sure though... :roll: )
τῆς ἀμουσίας = indirect object to παύσουσι, the direct being ὑμᾶς.

Happy new year!

EDIT: I just saw the previous posted answer by modus.irrealis. My answer is more "formalistic" syntactically. His, I suppose, is more helpful to understand the meaning, which is of course the A and Ω in reading a text... :wink:
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: Plato Kleitofon syntax

Postby Tempus_1991 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:25 pm

I have translated'ποι φερεσθε' as 'where are you heading'

What do you think?
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Re: Plato Kleitofon syntax

Postby Swth\r » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:20 pm

It seems ok to me.
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