Middle Liddell denotation for οὕτω
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Middle Liddell denotation for οὕτω
III. with an adj. or adv. so, so much, so very, καλὸς οὕτω Il.; π?υμνόθεν οὕτως so entirely, Aesch.
Why do Liddell and Scott state that this usage of οὕτω must be accompanied by an adjective or adverb when many times it is used with only a verb?
Why do Liddell and Scott state that this usage of οὕτω must be accompanied by an adjective or adverb when many times it is used with only a verb?
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Re: Middle Liddell denotation for οὕτω
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Helm says "'ws' goes with 'outws' and with 'mallon' (in place of h...
Dyer calls its a colloquial combination of two idioms.
It seems to me in any case that "outws" refers to degree not to manner. "... is fitting to such a degree." Since there is neither an adjective nor an adverb in this instance, I was wondering how it conformed with Liddell's denotation.
Dyer calls its a colloquial combination of two idioms.
It seems to me in any case that "outws" refers to degree not to manner. "... is fitting to such a degree." Since there is neither an adjective nor an adverb in this instance, I was wondering how it conformed with Liddell's denotation.
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So that's where the real work (aka, original research) starts. To answer the question, you'd have to collect all instances of this construction (by first searching for outws near ws, and then checking all those instances for the presence of comparatives) and see if they share characteristics that are *not* present in the more frequent construction - or share those characteristics to a greater extent.vir litterarum wrote:So how does the inclusion of "outws" affect the translation? Why would Plato use this construction as opposed to just "mallon...h"?
Answers to such questions may or may not affect your English translation. Languages don't map one-to-one but many-to-many. Distinctions that Greek makes may not be represented in English, and vice versa.
Many, many questions that can be asked about Greek have no answers, *yet*. What you'll see in grammars is statements, like the one in KG cited above, to the effect that construction A and construction B both occur -- now, what determines their distribution?
Up to you to do your bit when you find questions that interest you!
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Nothing earth shattering:-) He regards the use of outws after mallon as contaminatio (mixing of two constructions), and apparently found no good parallels for this with mallon and outws so few words apart as they are here. You can imagine that a shift from one construction to another is more likely as a sentence gets longer.vir litterarum wrote:What does he mean when he says the distance between "mallon" and "outws" is too small?
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Sorry to go off topic, but - what are the chances of Mr Plato simply having made an error in his writing? Is it not possible that he simply used a construction that he didn't spend hours pondering and just wrote it down 'less than perfectly', rather than us concluding that we don't yet understand the construction?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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All kinds of possibilities, besides the vagaries of textual transmission. But the main factor you have to be aware of is that Plato worked extremely hard to make his texts sound like casual conversation -- Analysis of particle frequency, for instance, show that he likely uses more, not fewer, than the norm. Something had to make up for the loss of intonation information:-)IreneY wrote:You are not off topic. In fact that's what I think happened (unless he did it intentionally for reasons unknown).
You can compare it to email, and how we use smilies and (I at least) particles that I hardly use in my spoken English. Such as, 'Ah well', 'Never mind' etcetera when I am changing the subject. I don't need those as much when I'm in an actual face-to-face conversation, and I certainly don't use them in formal discursive prose either. They're an artifact of quasi-dialogue.