Apology 18c

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vir litterarum
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Apology 18c

Post by vir litterarum »

ou(=toi, w)= a)/ndrej )Aqhnai=oi, tau/thn th\n fh/mhn kataskeda/santej, oi( deinoi/ ei)si/n mou kath/goroi

I do not understand how ei)si/n mou can be placed in-between oi( deinoi/ and kath/goroi. I have looked at commentary and realize that oi( deinoi/ kath/goroi is the predicate, but how can ei)sin be in the attributive position?

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Re: Apology 18c

Post by annis »

More than any author I've read, Plato makes me realize what a stiff, inflexible Greek we are presented in textbooks.
vir litterarum wrote:I do not understand how ei)si/n mou can be placed in-between oi( deinoi/ and kath/goroi. I have looked at commentary and realize that oi( deinoi/ kath/goroi is the predicate, but how can ei)sin be in the attributive position?
I would say here that the enclitic nature of εἰσιν has shifted it forward into the noun phrase, especially since there is a chain of enclitics, εἰσίν μου, which will gravitate forward under the influence of Wackernagel's law, to "second position." Sometimes the article counts as the first element for this law, sometimes not, which leads us into dark corners of Greek word order I still find alarming.

I'd also add that adjectives and sometimes adverbs are the only words that can properly speaking be "attributive." μέν or a form of εἰμί cannot be in that relationship with a noun, no matter where they occur.

The Scottish Academic Press evidently printed way too many copies of M.H.B Marshall's Verbs, Nouns and Postpositives in Attic Prose, so that it's not unusual to find several copies in used bookstores otherwise not full of Greek books. I recommend it for a dense coverage of the behavior of postpositives (more of the μου variety than forms of εἰμί).
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

vir litterarum
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Post by vir litterarum »

I was aware postpositives could be placed between an article and its noun, but I was not aware forms of "eimi" could be.

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Postposition of eimi

Post by Franmorar »

Salutem plurimam amicis:

Consider this:

Only exceptionally, a nominal predicate can take the article. Therefore, οι δεινοι εισιν μου κατηγο?οι is not the predicate: this is the subject. The predicate is ουτοι (excuse me for omitting accents, this keyboard is not working well).
If well observed, the quoted structure is not really article + eimi + noun, but article + adjective + eimi + noun.
In this basic phrase structure, article + adjective + noun (the typical noun phrase), other word (mostly a verb) can be placed between the group formed by article+adjective, and the noun. It is a structure more frequent in poetry, but in prose is not unusual.
Then, it is only a coincidence that ειμι is a clitic (whereby it must be placed in second or third position), for other kind of verb can be placed instead.

Valete omnes.
Post Data: Excuse my broken English.

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Re: Postposition of eimi

Post by annis »


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

vir litterarum
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Post by vir litterarum »

See Helm's edition of the Apology. It explicitly states "oi deinoi" is the predicate and references Smyth also. What I cannot figure out is why no grammar I have read speaks about forms of "eimi" being placed between the article and its noun. Smyth speaks of postpositives but not postpositive verbs unless you count "oimai" which when used as a pospositive is not the main verb of the sentence. I even looked at an English translation of A Copious Greek Grammar and found nothing.

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Post by annis »


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

vir litterarum
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Post by vir litterarum »

I own Smyth's Grammar, the full Liddell and Scott lexicon, and have access to A Copious Greek Grammar, but I have been searching for a Greek Syntax which extensively covers word order and prosody if possible. Would you be able to suggest such a syntax?

It seems to me that Plato's placement of the copula strongly emphasizes "deinoi," so perhaps this is the rhetorical reason for its placement.

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Post by annis »

vir litterarum wrote:I own Smyth's Grammar, the full Liddell and Scott lexicon, and have access to A Copious Greek Grammar, but I have been searching for a Greek Syntax which extensively covers word order and prosody if possible. Would you be able to suggest such a syntax?
I know of no such book. Some of the most important work in these topics has happened in the last few decades, and details are still being worked out. Until common opinion settles, that work is going to stay in specialized publications.
It seems to me that Plato's placement of the copula strongly emphasizes "deinoi," so perhaps this is the rhetorical reason for its placement.
I have an aversion to the words "emphasize" and "emphatic," but I think this is basically right.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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