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Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

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Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby annis » Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:23 pm

The history of how I got this idea is on the web site (URL in a moment), but recently I've been writing Haiku in classical Greek.<br /><br />That's right. Haiku. In Greek.<br /><br />Of course, I documented this process, but I think this is a great way to learn more Greek, especially vocabulary. Once you feel brave enough I even describe ways to try Haiku using Greek meters. <br /><br />The main point, of course, is that it's fun.<br /><br />http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/ktl/haiku/<br /><br />So, give the web site a read, feel free to comment on it or the poems. grafete ai(kea!<br /><br />--<br />wm
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby Elucubrator » Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:28 am

William,<br /><br />I congratulate you on the beautiful and entertaining article on the Greek-Haiku hybrid monster. I think it is a great little game for beginners who want to try composing verse. I really enjoyed following you through the creative process, and watching the poems metamorphise from their initial rough forms into better Greek.<br /><br />Of particular interest to me, however, are some rules that you dropped along the way in passing. I'd really like to know where you got the information for these. Is this stuff in Seymour?<br /><br />Here are the two points that really interest me.<br /><br />(1) (Note: the augmentless aorists and imperfects actually reflect a grammatical category from early stages of the Greek language, not just a metrical convenience. You can only use the augmentless forms after you have already used a tensed verb to establish a temporal context. The augmentless forms then refer to the established tense, but change to reflect aspect.) <br /><br />(2) Notice how I decided not to contract *av8ew*, giving me an extra syllable. Not contracting *-ew*verbs is sanctioned by Epic practice (but if it were an *-ow* verb it'd have to contract).<br /><br /><br />On a side note: Is the Greek that I read on that page what Beta code looks like??? If that's it, I'm with you. ;)
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby annis » Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:59 am

[quote author=Elucubrator link=board=2;threadid=70;start=0#267 date=1051234111]<br />I congratulate you on the beautiful and entertaining article on the Greek-Haiku hybrid monster.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Monster?! I think even advanced Hellenists could use the Haiku form for a moment's inspiration, when they don't have the time or the resources for an elegiac couplet or a choral ode. :)<br /><br />
<br />Of particular interest to me, however, are some rules that you dropped along the way in passing. I'd really like to know where you got the information for these. Is this stuff in Seymour?<br />
<br /><br />Not Seymore, no.<br /><br />
<br />(1) (Note: the augmentless aorists and imperfects actually reflect a grammatical category from early stages of the Greek language,...<br />
<br /><br />This knowledge has been hinted it in various grammars for a while. People noticed that the agumentless forms were most common in narrative, quite infrequent in speech. My firm assertions in the article are due to a recent reading of "A New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin" by Sihler. Good book. Will make all peculiarities of the Greek perfect clear. :)<br /><br />
<br />(2) Notice how I decided not to contract *av8ew*, giving me an extra syllable. Not contracting *-ew*verbs is sanctioned by Epic practice (but if it were an *-ow* verb it'd have to contract).<br />
<br /><br />Smyth. He has good dialect notes. Just check out the discussion of contract verbs. Ionic (and hence, Homer) is happy to not contract -ew verbs, but -ow and -aw contract more readily.<br /><br />
<br />On a side note: Is the Greek that I read on that page what Beta code looks like??? If that's it, I'm with you. ;)<br />
<br /><br />Nope. Here's what the last haiku looks like in my strange encoding scheme:<br /><br />
Code: Select all
<br /><p><br /><center><br /><grkimgbig><br />  oi)noxoeu'ei \\<br />  farmaki's; xoire'ou oi('- \\<br />  -h skato`s o)dmh'<br /></grkimgbig><br /></center><br />
<br /><br />So, I use betacode for the greek encoding, but I actually run this through some programs I wrote which generate the Greek you see, which are just GIF files - pictures. Since I encode in Betacode already, some day I hope to be able to wave a magic wand, and turn the whole mass of Aoidoi.org to Unicode. It'll be much faster. I could do it now - I have the programs to do it - but it would make many people unable to read the site.<br /><br />--<br />wm
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby Elucubrator » Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:43 am

<br />(1) (Note: the augmentless aorists and imperfects actually reflect a grammatical category from early stages of the Greek language,...<br />
<br /><br />This knowledge has been hinted it in various grammars for a while. People noticed that the agumentless forms were most common in narrative, quite infrequent in speech. My firm assertions in the article are due to a recent reading of "A New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin" by Sihler. Good book. Will make all peculiarities of the Greek perfect clear. :)<br /><br /> ________________________________<br /><br />Yes, that sounds familiar that these forms were more frequent in narrative. I am really interested on this point. I have long been contemplating the structure of the Greek and Latin languages. Whereas the Latin verbal system is organised according to temporal distinctions, Greek is built up rather on aspectual ones. There are instances where the aorist cannot be referring to past time. I believe, as you have hinted that in Homer the augment is sometimes left off because in Greek the aorist was an aspect rather than a tense. Just as it is a timeless tense for example in gnomic pronouncements.<br /><br />I have Sihler on my shelf; I love that stuff. I took a graduate course on IE linguistics a few years ago as an undergraduate. I had to petition to get into it. It was so tough and difficult that everybody else dropped the course except for me and one graduate student who joined late. We were the heroes! ;D Sihler is good but there are still some big errors in it that our professor pointed out in his handouts. <br /><br />I read some of your background on the aoidos site, William, and I realised that we actually have a lot in common. I'm really glad to have met you here.<br /><br />
<br />(2) Notice how I decided not to contract *av8ew*, giving me an extra syllable. Not contracting *-ew*verbs is sanctioned by Epic practice (but if it were an *-ow* verb it'd have to contract).<br />
<br /><br />Smyth. He has good dialect notes. Just check out the discussion of contract verbs. Ionic (and hence, Homer) is happy to not contract -ew verbs, but -ow and -aw contract more readily.<br /> ______________________<br /><br /><br />I didn't know this. Thanks! I will look it up later. :)<br /><br />-S.<br />
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A Haiku Challenge

Postby Elucubrator » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:32 am

There is only one Haiku I know. But I have always been stunned by its beauty. I would like to see how you would turn it into Greek. Of course, only if you would enjoy trying it. <br /><br /><br />There was a rice merchant from Kyoto,<br />Who had two beautiful daughters<br />Warriors slay men with the sword<br />These girls slew men with their eyes.<br /><br /><br />It might not be right. I am quoting it from memory and it has been a long long time since I heard it, but maybe you or perhaps Santiago will know who the author and who the translator were.<br /><br />This poem always throws me into a swoon, as if I were slain, by merely thinking of their beauty. Well, without really expecting an answer in return, William, maybe someday you will surprise us. <br /><br />-S.
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby Raya » Sun Apr 27, 2003 7:40 am

Ooh, I like that one! Cf. Arabic poetry/music with all the 'a3younik' references... ;)<br /><br />My fave haiku - by Basho, I think - which might also do well in Greek:<br /><br />Since my house burned down<br />I now own a clearer view<br />Of the rising Moon<br /><br />- beauty in unexpected places...<br /><br />William: I'm afraid I can't get into your site! The page loads and then it crashes my browser... that happened 5 times in a row... ???
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Re:A Haiku Challenge

Postby annis » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:18 pm

[quote author=Elucubrator link=board=2;threadid=70;start=0#302 date=1051421577]<br />There is only one Haiku I know.<br /><br />There was a rice merchant from Kyoto,<br />Who had two beautiful daughters<br />Warriors slay men with the sword<br />These girls slew men with their eyes.<br /><br /><br />It might not be right. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />This is much too large to be a haiku. Perhaps a tanka or something. It could perhaps be distilled into a haiku. I'll think about it. :)<br />
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby annis » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:25 pm

[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=70;start=0#304 date=1051429212]<br />Ooh, I like that one! Cf. Arabic poetry/music with all the 'a3younik' references... ;)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />yaa Habiibii yaaa....<br />yaa qalbii yaaa...<br /><br />I so love Arabic music. It's the main reason I study Arabic from time to time. I must put on MuHammad 3abdul-Wahhad now.<br /><br />
<br />William: I'm afraid I can't get into your site! The page loads and then it crashes my browser... that happened 5 times in a row... ???<br />
<br /><br />What browser are you using? My site has to be one of the least complex in the world, I cannot imagine how it is making any browser crash. It's just text and images, almost no formatting, and certainly no javascript goo. Can you see other Aoidoi.org pages, or is it just the Haiku page?<br /><br />--<br />wm
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby Raya » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:52 pm

What browser are you using?  My site has to be one of the least complex in the world, I cannot imagine how it is making any browser crash.  It's just text and images, almost no formatting, and certainly no javascript goo.  Can you see other Aoidoi.org pages, or is it just the Haiku page?
<br /><br />I use Opera, version 7, and can't get into any of the Aoidoi.org pages. I don't get why it crashes either...<br /><br />As for Arabic music, all you need are 2 concepts: Habibi/Habibty and 3ayn/3ayounik/noor el-3ayn. ;D Slight exaggeration - but much of the popular stuff is made primarily for Arabic dance, which is what I like Arabic music for...
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Re:Writing Greek Poetry: TO ELLHNIKON AIKU

Postby annis » Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:39 pm

[quote author=Raya link=board=2;threadid=70;start=0#307 date=1051455125]<br />I use Opera, version 7, and can't get into any of the Aoidoi.org pages. I don't get why it crashes either...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I use tables for the nav-bar with some width specifications. It looks like Opera 7 has difficulties with this, though I didn't find any suggestion that crashes would result. This is the best hint I could find.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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