Just a quick subjective question... In the earlier days of memorisation, nouns seemed so much easier, but now when I hear or read a phrase or short sentence, it is the verbs that stick in my memory more clearly.
I haven't read about this in the SLA literature.
Does anybody else have a similar experience with their Greek?
Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
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Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
No, I haven't noticed any distinction between nouns and verbs in terms of retention.
The only way I've discovered to make vocabulary permanent is to meditate on a text for a considerable period of time. The vocabulary I encountered reading through a text for the first time is shockingly impermanent. One way to improve retention is to take copious hand written notations which I routinely do with difficult material. Writing the words down with lexical semantic analysis also helps somewhat, however it is no guarantee that a month later I will know that vocabulary. Meditating on a text for prolonged period of time is very effective.
The only way I've discovered to make vocabulary permanent is to meditate on a text for a considerable period of time. The vocabulary I encountered reading through a text for the first time is shockingly impermanent. One way to improve retention is to take copious hand written notations which I routinely do with difficult material. Writing the words down with lexical semantic analysis also helps somewhat, however it is no guarantee that a month later I will know that vocabulary. Meditating on a text for prolonged period of time is very effective.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
I would say at the current level of my Greek there is no real difference in the internalization level of nouns versus verbs. Probably at earlier levels nouns were easier to memorize/internalize, possibly because nouns tend to be more concrete in meaning and a little simpler in form. Mounce, as you may know, teaches nouns first. On the other hand, Rico and Buth, influenced by Total Physical Response learning strategies, introduce stuff like στῆθι and κάθισον at the earliest level. I think my own kids used more nouns than verbs at the earliest levels of speech.
If there is one thing we know about SLA, it is that different people learn differently, so I suspect some will share your experience and some won't.
If there is one thing we know about SLA, it is that different people learn differently, so I suspect some will share your experience and some won't.
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
That is similar to another difference that I have noticed. There has been a progressive change from remembering sequences of sounds to memorisation based on understood language.C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Meditating on a text for prolonged period of time is very effective.
Similar to your writing and re-writing, I found that repeatedly going over the sequence of sounds in my mind is a good to (eventually) attach meaning to the sounds.
The situation is quite different if I understand what I am reading it. In that case, I tend to remember those parts of the phrases that I understand in a different way. For example, after reading this passage
a few times today, I was able to reproduce it as:Mark 8:38 wrote:Ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ τῇ μοιχαλίδι καὶ ἁμαρτωλῷ, καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καταισχυνθήσεται αὐτόν, ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων τῶν ἁγίων.
- Ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν καταισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ τῇ μοιχιλίδι καὶ ἁμαρτωλῷ, καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καταισχυνθήσεται αὐτόν, ὅταν ἔλθω ἐν τῇ δόξᾳ τοῦ πατρός μου μετὰ τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων.
Except in the case of cognates that I hadn't realised at first glance, my first and second pass vocabulary is a sieve which wide gauze - only the most weighty things remain.C. S. Bartholomew wrote:The vocabulary I encountered reading through a text for the first time is shockingly impermanent.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
Let me ask a few things about where you are at:Markos wrote:I would say at the current level of my Greek there is no real difference in the internalization level of nouns versus verbs.
- To what extent do you morphologise or analyse verbs when you encounter them?
- How many variables do you work with, or how many building blocks to find in each verbal form now?
- Was it different before?
- When you see something like καταισχυνθήσεται αὐτόν, where on a scale ranging from the hyper-morphologised κατ-αισχ-υ-ν-θέ-lengthen-σ-ε-τ-α-ι αὐ-τ-ό-ν to reading the whole phrase as one meaning καταισχυνθήσεται αὐτόν do you stand now?
- Has the increased speed that automaticity brings resulted in loss of accuracy?
I guess that beginners would treat those commands as single functional units of the language, rather than a grammaticised root.Markos wrote:Rico and Buth, influenced by Total Physical Response learning strategies, introduce stuff like στῆθι and κάθισον at the earliest level. I think my own kids used more nouns than verbs at the earliest levels of speech.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
The Colloquia of the Heremeneumata Pseudodositheana introduced beginning learners of the language(s) to all sorts of useful phrases and expressions, with the kind of simplicity one tends to encounter in daily communication, but not shying away from forms that might be considered "difficult" for beginning students today, such as hortatory subjunctives or indirect discourse using the accusative and infinitive.
I haven't tried to memorize vocabulary since I finished my 1,000 Vis-ed ancient Greek cards decades ago (or the equivalent set of biblical Hebrew cards a little later). My vocabulary acquisition is simply through reading and re-reading texts. But I try not to read them too many times, lest Michael accuse me of fanaticism...
I haven't tried to memorize vocabulary since I finished my 1,000 Vis-ed ancient Greek cards decades ago (or the equivalent set of biblical Hebrew cards a little later). My vocabulary acquisition is simply through reading and re-reading texts. But I try not to read them too many times, lest Michael accuse me of fanaticism...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
When I encounter new vocabulary I try to learn it, by relating it to vocabulary that I do know, and in context.Barry Hofstetter wrote:My vocabulary acquisition is simply through reading and re-reading texts. But I try not to read them too many times, lest Michael accuse me of fanaticism...
With certain exceptions I would rather read a new text than one I’ve read 500 times or even twice before. On the subject of everyday communication, does anyone except prep school latin or greek teachers still use “lest”?
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Re: Earier & latter memorisation - nouns then verbs
Dictionary.com lists 3 examples from articles found on the web published in 2014. What do you want to bet that the authors all took Latin at some point?mwh wrote: With certain exceptions I would rather read a new text than one I’ve read 500 times or even twice before. On the subject of everyday communication, does anyone except prep school latin or greek teachers still use “lest”?
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...