Textkit Logo

Thanks

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:45 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:21 am

Mindy wrote:Why are the cases in this order: Nominative, Genitive, Dative and Accusative? Is there any logic in between? Why not N., G., A., and D.? Or N., A., D. and G.?


John W. Wenham The Elements of NT Greek uses the order N A G D.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:26 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:35 pm

It’s mostly arbitrary. Various advantages have been proposed for one or the other, depending mostly on whether the textbook author wants to differentiate himself from the Germans or not. I don’t know what the ancient textbooks use. In reading or writing, the cases do not come in order, and native speakers would not have imagined an order.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby Timothée » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:40 pm

Better to use more general grammars for reference, as Ancient Greek is much more than just the New Testament. (As for the use of the article in Greek and English and the comparison between the two languages, this kind of thread isn’t a place for blowing one’s own trumpet with bagatelles, as the only aim is to be helpful.)

Traditionally genitive is second so that it would be next to the nominative: genitive is generally still used to show the declension (and stem) of the word. After that comes dative and then accusative, and in Latin we have in addition the ablative in the last place. Of the German grammars e.g. Kaegi follows the ancient order, Bornemann & Risch the more modern one.

The major point of difference, then, as noted above, is the place of the accusative. More recently it has quite often been placed second, as it often has resemblance with the nominative. Also genitive and dative often have something in common, e.g. the same accent (most notably in the 1st and 2nd declensions).
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:10 pm

Mindy wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote: John W. Wenham The Elements of NT Greek uses the order N A G D.


Why is G between A and D? Why aren't A and D together?


Let's suppose for the sake of discussion that John William Wenham (1913 – 13 February 1996) shared ideas with early proponents transformational grammar. This is highly improbable, but it give us an opportunity to theorize about the order of N A G D used in The Elements of NT Greek. Wait! Don't bail out yet, you don't need to know anything about transformational grammar to follow the argument.

The minimal length for a Greek clause/sentence is a single word.

John 19:30 ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται, καὶ κλίνας τὴν κεφαλὴν παρέδωκεν τὸ πνεῦμα.

John 19:30 (NRSV) When Jesus had received the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

However, this is not a prototypical Greek clause/sentence. The prototypical clause/sentence has three elements but not necessarily three words.

Clause Prototype: finite-verb [nominative] accusative .... in any order.

The verb ending is inflected for person and number. This inflection functions like a nominative.

This provides a rationale for the order N A G D. [nominative] accusative are basic components of prototypical Greek clause/sentence. Genitive and dative are optional elements listed in order of probability. E.V.N. Goetchius[1] uses this kind of logic in his presentation.

[1]Language of the New Testament, Charles Scribners 1965.
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:38 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:43 pm

Mindy, are you asking about case order in a sentence, or case order in the tables in Crosby?
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:53 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:01 pm

There is no rule about accusative going before dative, nor dative going before accusative. Greek word order is free compared to other languages. You’ll learn more as you read it.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:04 pm

Mindy wrote:
jeidsath wrote:Mindy, are you asking about case order in a sentence, or case order in the tables in Crosby?


Case order in the tables in Crosby. Sometimes in a sentence D is before A, so I think that is why D is before A in the tables.

Sometimes a sentence begins with a verb. This is the case for both Hebrew and Greek.


N A G D does not represent clause order. It may[1] be used to represent a case hierarchy moving from left to right. The nominative/verb-ending & accusative make up the core clause. The nominative function can be supplied by the finite verb person-number inflection. Nominative is at the top of the case hierarchy. Accusative is the prototypical object of the verb. The Genitive is ubiquitous but not essential. Dative is less common.

The case hierarchy moves from left to right: most essential --> less essential. This is a useful way of thinking about building sentences in a language. You start up with the core structure and work outward from the core adding nonessential elements.

[1] Don't look for this in traditional grammar, it isn't there.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:31 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mindy
 

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:04 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Very good.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:30 pm

Mindy wrote:If the case order moves from left to right: most essential - less essential, why does it go N G D A? Why not N G A D? Or N A D G? I understand from Timothee's post: G describes N, so G follows N. G and D have things in common, so D follows G.


Mindy, all of those orders are possible in Greek. Look at the first few sentences of John 1:

ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων· καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν.

D Verb N. N Verb (preposition) A. N Verb N. N Verb D (preposition) A. A (preposition) G Verb. N G Verb N. N Verb D N Verb. N Verb N G. N G Verb. N A Verb.

Greek word order is free, compared to English or Chinese. But let's save word order discussions until a later date, once you have read more.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:44 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:34 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:40 am

Mindy wrote:p. 50 (b) Translate:
1. έχομεν τους καλους λίθους.
We have beautiful stones.

2. εθελω τω αγαθω ανθρώπω γράφειν.
I wish he writes to the good man.
or
I wish to write to the good man.


1. At this level, you should probably translate the article when you see it, "the good stones."

2. Your second option. Greek would express the former with somewhat different syntax.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:43 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:42 pm

Mindy wrote:3. καί ό στρατηγός τόν άγγελον άγει από τού Ελλησπόντου.
The general leads the messenger from the Hellespont/Dardanelles.


Don't forget to translate καί. Everything else was great. Are you finding these very easy? You may find the translation to Greek section coming up to be slightly more difficult.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:58 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:22 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:01 pm

Well, I hope that it is improving your Bible reading!

All of those are very good. If you are able to handwrite 19(b), with accents, and upload the photos (or email them to me), I think it would be good practice. If you can't, don't worry about it, just type them as you have been doing.

Notice the hints in 19(a). It's all very good advice.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:52 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:21 pm

Perfect. Here's Luke 22:52. The στρατηγοὶ τοῦ ἱεροῦ are usually translated as "captains of the temple" but notice that it's the same word.

εἶπεν (he said) δὲ Ἰησοῦς (Nom. Jesus) πρὸς τοὺς παραγενομένους (acc. pl. "to those present") ἐπ' αὐτὸν (acc. sing. against him/surrounding him) ἀρχιερεῖς (acc. pl. high priests) καὶ στρατηγοὺς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ πρεσβυτέρους (acc. pl. old men):

Ὡς ἐπὶ λῃστὴν ἐξήλθατε μετὰ μαχαιρῶν καὶ ξύλων; Have you come out against me with knives and sticks, like you would against a robber?
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:24 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:42 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:49 pm

Mindy wrote:p. 11
(a) What probable use of the word is denoted by the heavy type endings?

(τό) άξι ον
from άξιος to άξι ον
adj. of a nominative(singular) ending in ον

(τά) δήλ α
δήλος - δήλ α
adj. of a Nom(plu). ending in α


These could also be accusative. Remember the "neuter rule" in declensions that the nominative and accusative are always the same. When identifying adjectives, include number, gender and case.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:08 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:01 pm

ἄξιον:

Neuter nominative singular
Neuter accusative singular
Masculine accusative singular
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:33 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Mindy wrote:Thank you, Joel.

p. 11
(a) What probable use of the word is denoted by the heavy type endings?

The heavy type endings ου, ον, ων, α, οις καί ω denote these words are neuter.

(τού) πεδί ου Gen(singular). of πεδίον
Neuter genitive singular

(τό) άξι ον
from άξιος to άξι ον
adj. of a nominative or an accusative(singular) ending in ον
Neuter nominative singular
Neuter accusative singular
Masculine accusative singular

(τά) δήλ α
δήλος - δήλ α
adj. of a Nom or an Accu(plu). ending in α
Neuter nominative plural
Neuter accusative plural


You might find this pattern of grammar tagging[1] easier:

First (Top) tag: Noun (N), Adjective (A), Preposition (P), Verb (V), Advervb (D), Particle (Q)

Case tag: Nom (N), Acc (A) Dat (D), Gen (G)
Gender tag: Masc (M), Fem (F), Neut (N)
Person Tag: First (1) Second (2) Third (3)
Number tag: Sing (S), Plur (P)
Degree: comparative (C) superlative (S)

The order of the tags is somewhat arbitrary. The grammars often omit the First Tag altogether and switch the order of the other tags. The First Tag is critical since it determines structure of the following tags. The order represents a hierarchy where the leftmost element functions as the key to the rest of the hierarchy.

Examples:
αὐτοῦ AP-GM3S adjective pronominal genitive masculine third person singular
καταδείξας VPAANMS verb participle aorist active nominative masculine singular
ἐποίησεν VIAA-3S verb indicative aorist active third person singular
ἄγγελος NNMS noun nominative masculine singular
τοῦ APDGM/NS adjective pronominal determiner genitive masculine/neuter singular
ὕπατοι A--NMPS adjective nominative masculine plural superlative

[1] Tagging adapted from the Barbara Friberg and Timothy Friberg System. Main advantage is the lack of ambiguity. I've simplified several aspects of the Friberg Tags which I found confusing. Adjectives are used as a top level category that includes pronouns, determiners and relative pronouns. I've actually forgotten some details of the system and certainly made some errors here. Donated my hard copies of Friberg's analysis to students long time ago. I'm not promoting anything other than clarity. Matters not what system you use as long as it's not confusing. Article publishing 1994 discusses the different kinds of tagging: http://www.balboa-software.com/hahne//B ... 0ETS94.pdf

[2] Pronominal Determiner probably creates a problem for some people. You won't find it in traditional grammars. Fribergs Analysis published in 1981 included an article explaining the tag hierarchy.

Postscript: Editing my posts I keep stumbling upon language interference from Hebrew. I keep finding substantives functioning as a Hebrew construct state where I have to go back and add a preposition to make it read like English syntax.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:26 am

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:07 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:12 pm

τὰ δένδρα is "the trees". The Greeks used singular verbs with plural neuters. So they said ἦν τὰ δένδρα, and not ἦσαν τὰ δένδρα.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:20 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:24 pm

Also, what is the part of speech of δῆλα? So what must it agree with?
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Thanks

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm

deleted
Last edited by Mindy on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mindy
 

Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:18 pm

Mindy, I'm going to change the name of this thread to "Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer". Don't be surprised!

Your answers:

1. Not quite right yet. "In the clear plain" would be ἐν τῷ δήλῳ πεδίῳ. "In the clear plains" would be ἐν τοῖς δήλοις πεδίοις. However, δῆλα does not agree with πεδίῳ. It's not the plains that are clear. It agrees with δένδρα. That's the plural neuter nominative form of both. So: "The trees were clear in the plain."

3. "the honorable gifts" -> "honorable gifts"

4. "παρά τούς φίλους". "From the friends" would be genitive, "παρὰ τῶν φίλων." But notice the accusative here.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

PreviousNext

Return to Learning Greek