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Postby Mindy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:45 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:53 pm

I believe that Mindy is asking about this section from Crosby:

Image
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μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
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Postby Mindy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:59 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:12 pm

Let's take the example sentences in Crosby one by one:

The nominative forms of the verbs are ἀδελφός, στρατηγός.

1. ἀδελφὸν ἔχει He has a brother.

In this sentence "He has a brother," "he" is the subject. "A brother" is the object. The direct object of a verb is generally accusative in Greek, so ἀδελφός -> ἀδελφόν.

2. οἱ στρατηγοὶ ἦσαν ἀδελφοί. The generals were brothers.

In this sentence, everything is nominative, because the verb "is" takes nominative on both sides. However they are plural not singular, so στρατηγός -> στρατηγοί, and ἀδελφός -> ἀδελφοί.

3. ὁ τοῦ στρατηγοῦ ἀδελφός The brother of the general.

Here "the brother" is the subject and remains nominative. But to express "of something" the Greeks used the genitive. So ὁ στρατηγός -> τοῦ στρατηγοῦ.

4. τῷ στρατηγῷ πέμπει τὸν ἀδελφόν He sends the brother to the general.

"He" is the subject. "The brother" is the direct object (so accusative as in #1). The indirect object "to the general" is expressed by the dative in Greek.

ὁ ἀδελφός -> τὸν ἀδελφόν
ὁ στρατηγός -> τῷ στρατηγῷ

5. ἀδελφὸν πέμπει He sends a brother

"A brother" is the direct object again, so accusative.

ἀδελφός -> ἀδελφόν

So in the Exercise, "What use of the noun do the heavy type endings suggest?"

1. ἀδελφοῦ. Check the table on page 1. What form is this? Answer: genitive. What is the genitive used for in Greek? An "of" relationship. So "of a brother"

And so on.
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Postby Mindy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:51 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby mwh » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:47 pm

The point is that the endings are positively loaded with information about the word’s function in the sentence, how the individual word relates to other words in the sentence. Very different from English, which depends more on word order to convey this kind of info. Consider the difference between Παυλος Πετρον τύπτει and Παυλον Πετρος τύπτει. (τύπτει = “hits”.) So when reading Greek you always have to pay attention to the word endings.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby Paul Derouda » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:52 pm

I think Mindy's native language is Chinese. I don't know Chinese, but I think English and Chinese have a lot in common here in not loading information in word endings, unlike Greek.
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Postby Mindy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:40 am

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:11 pm

Hi Mindy. Look back at the chart on page one:

Image

Παῦλος = Paul
Πέτρος = Peter

Good, these are both Nominative. The equivalent in the chart is: ὁ ποταμός (the river)

Παύλου = Paul's
Πέτρου = Peter's

Good. These are both Genitive. The equivalent in the chart is: τοῦ ποταμοῦ (of the river).

Now look at what's left over:

Dative (indirect object of a verb, "to" or "for" relation in English) = τῷ ποταμῷ
Accusative (direct object of a verb) = τὸν ποταμόν.

***

Before going on with the exercise, can you write out the Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative of ὁ ποταμός in the singular. And then please write it out in the plural.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:58 pm

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Postby Mindy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:24 am

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:25 pm

Very good! You've correctly identified all of them. Let's go on to the next exercise and see how N/G/D/A work in Greek sentences.

Image

If you want to make a recording of yourself reading these aloud, feel free to post it to this thread, or email me with it, and I can post it.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:36 pm

jeidsath wrote:Very good! You've correctly identified all of them.


Strike that. There are some small errors with the use of articles. See where I've corrected below. I've also corrected your accents here, but let's ignore those for now:

τοῦ αδελφoῦ = of the brother Genitive
ἀδελφοί = brothers Nominative
ὁ ἀδελφός = the brother N

τοὺς στρατηγούς = the generals Accusative
τῷ στρατηγῷ = to the general Dative
τῶν στρατηγῶν = of the generals G.

τὸν ποταμόν = the river A.
τοῖς ποταμοῖς = to the rivers D.
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Postby Mindy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:53 pm

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Postby Mindy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:49 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:22 pm

I won’t be able to listen to them until tonight. Maybe someone else can comment? However, if you write the English translations, I can comment on those now.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby Timothée » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:57 pm

I hear very little wrong in your reading, very good! Two points however:

1. ἦν στρατηγός. You translate, “He was the general.”
6. τ στρατηγ — —. I hear you pronounce these endings differently from each other. Pronounce the ending in τ the same way you pronounce the ending in στρατηγ, and this will be hunky-dory.
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Postby Mindy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:32 am

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:47 pm

1.
He was a general.
Or
There was a general.

5.
It was a river.

6. ω is pronounced like a long ο. I believe that most Cantonese vowels have a long and a short version.
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Postby Mindy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:02 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:21 pm

I see. You said that you spoke both, so I simply assumed, which was silly of me.
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Postby Mindy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:01 pm

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Postby Mindy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:14 am

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:50 pm

ὁ στρατηγὸς ἔχει ἀδελφόν.
ἦσαν ποταμοί
τοῖς στρατηγοῖς πέμπουσι τοὺς ἀδελφούς

Good. On capitals, see the manuscript page just before the beginning of this chapter. Writing Greek with capital letters was a late invention. Crosby only uses capital letters for proper names.

Notice a few things about the accents and breathings:

1. Every word that begins with a vowel needs a breathing.
ο needs to be written as ὁ (the "rough" breathing, signifying an "h" sound at the beginning). αδελφους has the opposite, and gets and ἀ at the beginning (the "smooth" breathing, no "h" sound). εχει and ησαν both begin with vowels, and both have the smooth breathing. ἠσαν and ἐχει.

2. If you have a word that take an acute on the last syllable, it becomes grave before another word in a sentence.
So you have marked the correct syllable for στρατηγός and τούς, but in a sentence it becomes στρατγηγὸς ἔχει and τοὺς ἀδελφούς. Notice that ἀδελφόν, ποταμοί, and ἀδελφούς all occur at the end of a sentence, so they do NOT get the grave. It's only before another word in the sentence.

There are more accent rules, but those two are good enough to start with. Try to use them in the exercises going forward. If you need help typing Greek with accents, we can give you some suggestions.
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Postby Mindy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:09 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:25 pm

Those are modern Greek accents, unfortunately. If you have a Windows computer, or a Mac, you can install the "Greek Polytonic" keyboard (not the normal Greek).

These instructions outline the basic idea, although they may not be up to date:
http://www.dramata.com/Ancient%20polyto ... indows.pdf
http://www.dramata.com/Ancient%20polyto ... intosh.pdf

If you just want to use something online, there is:

https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/greek_ancient.htm
or
http://www.typegreek.com/

Or you could even write it all down with paper and pencil, and just upload images.
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Postby Mindy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:15 am

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Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:32 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:12 pm

Very good, except for #6:

Mindy wrote:6. οί πολέμιοι αξιους στρατηγούς έχουσιν.
The enemy is worthy of generals' boast.
What is the original word for έχουσιν?


ἀξίους στρατηγούς = "worthy generals". ἀξίους is a masculine plural adjective, and it agrees with the masculine plural noun στρατηγούς

Please try again. I think that ἔχουσιν should make sense to you now.

And I wouldn't mind seeing your handwritten answers, so that I can comment on the accents. It's best to start learning that early on.
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Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:26 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:13 pm

Mindy wrote:Thank you.

6. οί πολέμιοι αξιους στρατηγούς έχουσιν.
The enemy have worthy generals.

7. ο στρατηγός τούς ανθρώπους πεμπει τω αδελφω.
The general sends the men to the brother.

8. οί άνθρωποι έχουσιν αξιους αδελφούς.
Men have worthy brothers.

Sorry, I must figure out how to download a Greek keyboard. I'm not good at computer and cell phone.



Mindy,

WHY? ο στρατηγός The general

BUT: οί άνθρωποι <blank> men

Clarification, the actual "rules" for translating the Greek article into English are somewhat complex. The Greek article is by no means functionally identical to the English article. But that's a question for intermediate or advanced grammar.
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... a33c584f2d
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:14 pm

I noticed another error on #2:

2.
τον άνθρωπον πεμπει από τού Ελλησπόντου.
He sends a man from Hellespont/the Dardanelles.


He sends the man...

8. οί άνθρωποι έχουσιν αξιους αδελφούς.
Men have worthy brothers.


The men have...

See my post above about Greek keyboards. The various links there may help you out. But if not, then you can still learn Greek.
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Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:25 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:47 pm

Mindy wrote:Thank you all.

I am confused with a and the.


Mindy, don't worry about it you're doing fine. 99.5% of native English speakers could not explain the rules for the use of the article in English. At this point in your studies you can continue to translate the Greek article with the direct article in English. There will be certain situations where that will be obviously wrong and we can deal with those when they arrive.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:53 pm

This may help you with a/an/the in English. It's not exactly the same as in Greek, but Greek/English are much closer with their use of definite articles than Mandarin.

https://www.hjenglish.com/cixing/yingyuguanci/

Greek (and English) mainly uses the definite article ("the" in English, "ὁ/ἡ/τό" in Greek) to refer to something that is already referenced or known. A definite person, place, thing, or idea. Let's do a simple example in English:

"My mother gave me a car. The car was a red sports car. My sister wanted the car herself."

The three sentences above all go together. In the first sentence, it is "a car," because it has not been referenced before, and we have no idea what car his mother is giving him. The second sentence refers to the specific car of the first sentence, so it is now "the car." And the same for the third sentence.

For now, when you see ὁ/ἡ/τό, assume that it refers to a definite object that is already expected to be known to reader. English will usually use "the" to translate this. We'll worry about the exceptions later. But for now just use "the."
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μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:18 pm

jeidsath wrote:This may help you with a/an/the in English. It's not exactly the same as in Greek, but Greek/English are much closer with their use of definite articles than Mandarin.

https://www.hjenglish.com/cixing/yingyuguanci/

Greek (and English) mainly uses the definite article ("the" in English, "ὁ/ἡ/τό" in Greek) to refer to something that is already referenced or known. A definite person, place, thing, or idea. Let's do a simple example in English:

"My mother gave me a car. The car was a red sports car. My sister wanted the car herself."

The three sentences above all go together. In the first sentence, it is "a car," because it has not been referenced before, and we have no idea what car his mother is giving him. The second sentence refers to the specific car of the first sentence, so it is now "the car." And the same for the third sentence.

For now, when you see ὁ/ἡ/τό, assume that it refers to a definite object that is already expected to be known to reader. English will usually use "the" to translate this. We'll worry about the exceptions later. But for now just use "the."


Okay if we want to dive into this now, we should point out that these rules don't actually work. Greek uses the article with words that refer to entities which are cognitively accessible to the audience. These entities need not be previously referenced in the discourse. For example:

"Hermann Göring's limousine arrived at the Wolf's Lair."

Wolf's Lair is cognitively accessible because of the scenario opened by the mention of Hermann Göring.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:39 pm

C.S., this isn't the time for all of that. Notice the second to last line of my previous post. Baby steps.
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:03 pm

jeidsath wrote:C.S., this isn't the time for all of that. Notice the second to last line of my previous post. Baby steps.


Right. Agreed.

However, notice Luke using the article at the beginning of his introduction in reference to a scenario he assumes his audience knows about already. It's actually a pretty simple idea. Whatever your audience knows about and obviously is relevant to your discourse can be mentioned as if it has already been introduced.

Luke 1:1 Ἐπειδήπερ πολλοὶ ἐπεχείρησαν ἀνατάξασθαι διήγησιν περὶ τῶν πεπληροφορημένων ἐν ἡμῖν πραγμάτων,

τῶν πεπληροφορημένων ἐν ἡμῖν πραγμάτων,
the things which have been accomplished among us
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Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:56 pm

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby jeidsath » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:26 pm

Very good. I will be able to listen to the recording later this evening.

Do you have any questions about the first two sections? Otherwise verbs are up next!
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