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Μάλα / despite

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Μάλα / despite

Postby BartekStepien » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:47 pm

Hi there!,
I wonder if anyone could help me : I am now learning greek by the following way : reading Anabase.
I’m using the ‘les belles lettres’ version (I think it is also called Budé). Here is my problem :
Prof. Masqueray keeps translating μάλα as malgré (which means despite, if I am not wrong here) and he used it in two occasions I remember now :
μάλα + genetive and (2nd time) + participium praesentis activi.
I’ve looked into Grand Bailly and LSJ and nowhere is such a usage with such a meaning indicated. My question is : can anyone show me where can I find info on it or simply tell me such a usage is correct (with examples from other authors maybe, please :) ! )
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby anphph » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:51 pm

Can you quote us some of the examples?
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby BartekStepien » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:17 pm

anphph wrote:Can you quote us some of the examples?

Anabase 4.1.23
μαλα πολλών φόβων προσαγομένων = malgré toutes les craintes qu’on essayait de lui causer
(Here loeb translates the same : despite all the numerous threats that were made to him)
Anabase 5.4.18
μαλα όντες συχνοί = malgré leur nombre (despite their number, I don’t have an access to loeb as to this passage)
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby anphph » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:35 pm

The concessive force in both of those passages is not given by μάλα but by the participles. As you know, participles in Greek can mean many different things, and often there isn't a specific word to pinpoint the precise relation that they have to the rest of the phrase. In these examples, the participle (as a genitive absolute in the first instance, and as a regular nominative in the second) has a sense of slightly contradicting expectations - of concession.

If it helps, the translation would be almost exactly the same in both of them if you'd remove μάλα:

malgré toutes les craintes could become malgré les craintes, and malgré leur nombre could actually remain identical, since μάλα συχνοί is pleonastic.
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby jeidsath » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:41 pm

Anabasis 4.1.23

ὁ μὲν οὖν ἕτερος οὐκ ἔφη μάλα πολλῶν φόβων προσαγομένων.

The genitive absolute is what signals concession there ("despite"), not the μάλα. Look at 1.3.10:

καὶ μεταπεμπομένου αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἐθέλω ἐλθεῖν. Despite him recalling me, I am not willing to go.

***

Anabasis 5.4.18.

οἱ δὲ Ἕλληνες μάλα ἤχθοντο ὅτι τούς τε πολεμίους ἐπεποιήκεσαν θρασυτέρους καὶ ὅτι οἱ ἐξελθόντες Ἕλληνες σὺν αὐτοῖς ἐπεφεύγεσαν μάλα ὄντες συχνοί: ὃ οὔπω πρόσθεν ἐπεποιήκεσαν ἐν τῇ στρατείᾳ.

Smyth 2382 mentions that the participle alone can express concession, as here. A very similar example:

πολλοὶ γὰρ ὄντες εὐγενεῖς εἰσιν κακοί. For despite being noble, many are rotten.

EDIT: What anphph said.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby BartekStepien » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:11 am

Τhank You Both :) !
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby Hylander » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 am

While μάλα doesn't mean "despite", it seems to me that in the cited passages it intensifies the concessive or adversative force of the participles.
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby anphph » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:21 am

Hylander wrote:While μάλα doesn't mean "despite", it seems to me that in the cited passages it intensifies the concessive or adversative force of the participles.


In other words, μάλα means μάλα :D
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby Paul Derouda » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 pm

I read the whole Anabasis in the Budé edition, so I think it's quite good. It was the first prose text of any length that I have read, and a good choice I think.

For additional help, you could try Goodwin's commentary First Four Books of Xenophon’s Anabasis, available here on Textkit: http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/103/author_id/38/, and also White's Illustrated Dictionary to Xenophon’s Anabasis: http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/120/author_id/39/.

When I read the Anabasis, I had a an old paper book (over 100 years old) that included both these works (commentary and dictionary). I borrowed it from the University library, but you can probably also find a used copy in Abebooks or the like, if you don't like to use a PDF.
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby BartekStepien » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:55 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:I read the whole Anabasis in the Budé edition, so I think it's quite good. It was the first prose text of any length that I have read, and a good choice I think.

For additional help, you could try Goodwin's commentary First Four Books of Xenophon’s Anabasis, available here on Textkit: http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/103/author_id/38/, and also White's Illustrated Dictionary to Xenophon’s Anabasis: http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/120/author_id/39/.

When I read the Anabasis, I had a an old paper book (over 100 years old) that included both these works (commentary and dictionary). I borrowed it from the University library, but you can probably also find a used copy in Abebooks or the like, if you don't like to use a PDF.


Thank you very much for your comment :) and good luck with Thucydides !
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Re: Μάλα / despite

Postby Paul Derouda » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:13 am

Thanks, Bartek! I'm going to need it (good luck, I mean). Feel free to ask for help any time with the Anabasis! If you feel more comfortable with French than English, I think you can use that as well (Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have a strict "English only" policy here - I think most of us want to cherish language diversity).
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