animal story
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animal story
http://anderson.modelcrafts.eu/pdfs/Gre ... 0story.pdf
I have had a read of the above story. It seems quite simple Greek but the story as a whole makes no sense to me. Why for instance does the white rabbits fur turn black when the cat sits on him? I get that the cat is angry with the rabbit but why does the cat not kill the rabbit? Running to get the dog to do it for him seems odd. If the cat is able to sit on the rabbit it is clearly able to kill the rabbit.
The next bit with a blind rooster talking about a rabbit and a cat seems to refer to these events but it just makes it more confused still to me.
The greek seems to be simple so every sentence is clear to me (I think) but they don't seem to me to make a logical whole.
I have had a read of the above story. It seems quite simple Greek but the story as a whole makes no sense to me. Why for instance does the white rabbits fur turn black when the cat sits on him? I get that the cat is angry with the rabbit but why does the cat not kill the rabbit? Running to get the dog to do it for him seems odd. If the cat is able to sit on the rabbit it is clearly able to kill the rabbit.
The next bit with a blind rooster talking about a rabbit and a cat seems to refer to these events but it just makes it more confused still to me.
The greek seems to be simple so every sentence is clear to me (I think) but they don't seem to me to make a logical whole.
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- Barry Hofstetter
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Re: animal story
Well, his purpose in making up these stories is to help people learning Greek from Mounce, a noble enterprise, but this is the sort of thing you get when you have limited vocabulary and grammar. I think it might be possible to δο better, however, composing a story which makes better sense. What do you think of this? It's a little something I did a while ago. I even did a Latin version which my students really liked:
Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε και αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε και αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Re: animal story
daivid, It’s a silly story and certainly motivations are none too transparent. We can force it to make some kind of coherent sense if we like (the cat was black; it was so insulted by the rabbit’s remark that it got the house dog to kill it; etc. etc.), but why bother?
He says “While an effort has been made to incorporate some kind of continuous story-line, the actual stories are often affected by the desire to incorporate the vocabulary which Mounce in his various chapters introduces.” Little wonder it doesn’t hang together too well as a story. Try thinking of it as a dream if it troubles you?
Barry, I’m sorry but there are many things wrong with this. In the first sentence alone the first word is an enclitic (shd be ημερᾳ τινι), εν is coupled with εβαινε (better e.g. εβαδιζε), αρκον is presumably for αρκτον, and πότε is ungrammatical, apparently used as a conjunction.
He says “While an effort has been made to incorporate some kind of continuous story-line, the actual stories are often affected by the desire to incorporate the vocabulary which Mounce in his various chapters introduces.” Little wonder it doesn’t hang together too well as a story. Try thinking of it as a dream if it troubles you?
Barry, I’m sorry but there are many things wrong with this. In the first sentence alone the first word is an enclitic (shd be ημερᾳ τινι), εν is coupled with εβαινε (better e.g. εβαδιζε), αρκον is presumably for αρκτον, and πότε is ungrammatical, apparently used as a conjunction.
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Re: animal story
I was assuming that even though I thought I understood the Greek there was something I was missing. If the story simply has a poor plot then I'm reassured.Barry Hofstetter wrote:Well, his purpose in making up these stories is to help people learning Greek from Mounce, a noble enterprise, but this is the sort of thing you get when you have limited vocabulary and grammar.
Yes, I like it a lot. Thanks.Barry Hofstetter wrote:Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε και αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
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Re: animal story
ἄρκτους μὲν μισῶ καὶ λένοτας. τὸν δὲ μῦθον φιλῶ καὶ τὸν φράψαντα.Barry Hofstetter wrote:What do you think of this? It's a little something I did a while ago. I even did a Latin version which my students really liked:
Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε και αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
τό αὐτὸ λέγω ἐγώ. ἄλλους οὖν μύθους ἡμῖν γράφε δή. ἔρρωσο.daivid wrote:Yes, I like it a lot. Thanks.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: animal story
Thanks, all valid observations, this appears to be an earlier version before editing, somewhere I have a corrected version with ἡμέρᾳ τινι and the corrected spelling of ἄρκτος, and ποτε should have been ὅτε! But when you say "εν is coupled with εβαινε" do you mean that ἐν is simply not a good preposition to be used in conjunction with βαίνω? I did find a few uses where ἐν was used with βαίνω (e.g. ἐν χθονὶ βαίνω), but not quite in the sense we would mean by "walking in the woods" so I think I might agree. Otherwise, the text was meant be to be a simple story that a second semester student would be able quickly to sight read with a few helps. Somewhere I also have a version which uses genitive absolutes and the subjunctive...mwh wrote:
Barry, I’m sorry but there are many things wrong with this. In the first sentence alone the first word is an enclitic (shd be ημερᾳ τινι), εν is coupled with εβαινε (better e.g. εβαδιζε), αρκον is presumably for αρκτον, and πότε is ungrammatical, apparently used as a conjunction.
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Re: animal story
Thanks Barry. Yes οτε would have been better! but still more English than Greek, and that’s true of the whole composition, as I dare say you realize. (You plonk the verbs at the end of their clauses but that’s about it.) That will explain why daivid and Markos like it, no doubt. To my way of thinking it’s not the best way to lead students into the workings of Greek, but it’s not so bad if the goal is reading the NT, and I’m guessing that’s what you mostly teach your schoolchildren.
As for βαινω, yes, you won’t often find it with prepositions not implying motion.
As for βαινω, yes, you won’t often find it with prepositions not implying motion.
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Re: animal story
That was a good catch then. I did teach Greek for about about 8 years at one school, using Crosby & Schaeffer along with Athenaze, and reading Xenophon, Homer, Plato, the New Testament, and Lucian for their intermediate and advanced classes. The story was written for students who have the indicative through the aorist but have not yet done participles, subjunctives or optatives, and for whom a simple paratactic style would be best, so yes, that would sound more English or more like the gospel writers (but not Acts or Hebrews).mwh wrote:Thanks Barry. Yes οτε would have been better! but still more English than Greek, and that’s true of the whole composition, as I dare say you realize. (You plonk the verbs at the end of their clauses but that’s about it.) That will explain why daivid and Markos like it, no doubt. To my way of thinking it’s not the best way to lead students into the workings of Greek, but it’s not so bad if the goal is reading the NT, and I’m guessing that’s what you mostly teach your schoolchildren.
As for βαινω, yes, you won’t often find it with prepositions not implying motion.
As for plunking the verb at the end of the sentence, that's really much more Latin than Greek, which tends to be far more flexible in its word order than prose Latin. Cf. the first line of the Anabasis:
Δαρείου καὶ Παρυσάτιδος γίγνονται παῖδες δύο, πρεσβύτερος μὲν Ἀρταξέρξης, νεώτερος δὲ Κῦρος· ἐπεὶ δὲ ἠσθένει Δαρεῖος καὶ ὑπώπτευε τελευτὴν τοῦ βίου, ἐβούλετο τὼ παῖδε ἀμφοτέρω παρεῖναι.
Where you don't see a single finite verb at the end of its clause.
As for ὅτε, it appears 32 times in the Anabasis alone, so how can it be more English than Greek?
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Re: animal story
You should find that version and post it. That would allow a leveled reading to be constructed which would help out Daivid. Level 1 could be something like this.Barry Hofstetter wrote:Somewhere I also have a version which uses genitive absolutes and the subjunctive...
ὁ ἄνθρωπος περιπατεῖ ἐν τοῖς δένδροις. ὁ ἄνθρωπος βλέπει τὸν ἄρκτον. ὁ ἄνθρωπος λέγει "τοὺς ἄρκτους φιλῶ." ὁ ἄνθρωπος δίδωσι ἄρτον τῷ ἄρκτῳ. ὁ ἄρκτος χαρὰν ἔχει καὶ νῦν φίλοι εἰσὶν ὁ ἄρκτος καὶ ὁ ἄνθρωπος. ὁ ἄρκτος και ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὸν λέοντα βλέπουσιν. ὁ ἄνθρωπος λέγει “μισῶ λέοντας.” καὶ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τρέχει. ὁ λέων διώκει τὸν ἄρκτον καὶ ὁ ἄνθρωπος φεύγει ἐκ τοῦ λέοντος. ὁ δ' ἀνθρωπος λέγει "ἄρκτους ἀγαπῶ."
It could then be leveled up as little or as much as one wants.
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Re: animal story
Barry,
Quite so. My point was that that’s your only significant deviation from English, and even that, as you say, is Latinate, not Greek.As for plunking the verb at the end of the sentence, that's really much more Latin than Greek,
You mistake my point. It’s a matter of syntax. In Greek (unlike English, and unlike Latin with its inverse cum) you don’t often have constructions like “He was doing X when he Y’ed.” Y—in this case ειδεν—would be the main verb. E.g. ανθρωπός τις οτε εν υλῃ εβαδιζεν αρκτον ειδεν would be far more idiomatic and not involve any more complex syntax.As for ὅτε, it appears 32 times in the Anabasis alone, so how can it be more English than Greek?
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Re: animal story
I actually did not even realize that I was doing it. I wonder if this is the fairly well known phenomenon of a second language influencing a third language (I started Latin before I had Greek).mwh wrote: Quite so. My point was that that’s your only significant deviation from English, and even that, as you say, is Latinate, not Greek.
That does clarify what you meant. Not sure -- it strikes me as authorial choice which idea to subordinate and which to emphasize as the main idea. Your sentence does sound like good Greek, though... If I were simply composing this without trying to simplify it, I would probably write τις ἐν τῇ ὕλῃ βαδίζων ἄρκτον εἶδεν, which sounds more like what you wrote.
You mistake my point. It’s a matter of syntax. In Greek (unlike English, and unlike Latin with its inverse cum) you don’t often have constructions like “He was doing X when he Y’ed.” Y—in this case ειδεν—would be the main verb. E.g. ανθρωπός τις οτε εν υλῃ εβαδιζεν αρκτον ειδεν would be far more idiomatic and not involve any more complex syntax.
Last edited by Barry Hofstetter on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Re: animal story
But you have told me that the best think for me is to give up. That at least is honest advice and far better than telling me that I should keep going using traditional methods that are clearly for me failing. Probably it is advice I should follow. However, reading easy Greek is also clearly a better method than either giving up or pursuing methods that for me clearly don't work.mwh wrote: To my way of thinking it’s not the best way to lead students into the workings of Greek, but it’s not so bad if the goal is reading the NT, and I’m guessing that’s what you mostly teach your schoolchildren. .
So it is possible to write good idiomatic Greek that has very simple syntax.mwh wrote:E.g. ανθρωπός τις οτε εν υλῃ εβαδιζεν αρκτον ειδεν would be far more idiomatic and not involve any more complex syntax.
I wish you would see what a valuable contribution you make when you correct someone else's easy Greek.
So I hope you will accept my thanks for the help you've just given Barry.
I will also repeat my assessment that Barry's story is excellent.
The plot was sound and the mistakes you made are easy to correct. I hope you will feel encouraged to write something similar but longer.
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Re: animal story
Hey, for the record I don't mind constructive criticism at all. It's good for the soul and even better for the Greek. And I think I just might...daivid wrote: So it is possible to write good idiomatic Greek that has very simple syntax.
I wish you would see what a valuable contribution you make when you correct someone else's easy Greek.
So I hope you will accept my thanks for the help you've just given Barry.
I will also repeat my assessment that Barry's story is excellent.
The plot was sound and the mistakes you made are easy to correct. I hope you will feel encouraged to write something similar but longer.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: animal story
Rev 13:2:
καὶ τὸ θηρίον ὃ εἶδον ἦν ὅμοιον παρδάλει καὶ οἱ πόδες αὐτοῦ ὡς ἄρκου...
Now I know where I got the spelling I originally used before correcting it.
καὶ τὸ θηρίον ὃ εἶδον ἦν ὅμοιον παρδάλει καὶ οἱ πόδες αὐτοῦ ὡς ἄρκου...
Now I know where I got the spelling I originally used before correcting it.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...