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προοριζω in Plutarch

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προοριζω in Plutarch

Postby timruah » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:36 pm

Trying to figure out the sense of προοριζω in the following passage. Wondering if people whose Greek is better than mine can elucidate.

ὁ μὲν οὖν κοινὸς οὕτω προωρίσθω καιρός: οὓς δὲ παρέχουσιν αὐτοὶ πολλάκις οὐ χρὴ προΐεσθαι τὸν κηδόμενον φίλων ἀλλὰ χρῆσθαι: καὶ γὰρ ἐρώτησις ἐνίοις καὶ διήγησις καὶ ψόγος; ὁμοίων ἐφ᾽ ἑτέροις ἢ ἔπαινος ὥσπερ ἐνδόσιμον εἰς παρρησίαν ἐστίν. οἷον ἐλθεῖν Δημάρατον εἰς Μακεδονίαν λέγουσι καθ᾽ ὃν χρόνον ἐν διαφορᾷ πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ὁ Φίλιππος; ἦν: ἀσπασαμένου δ᾽ αὐτὸν τοῦ Φιλίππου καὶ πυθομένου πῶς πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἔχουσιν ὁμονοίας οἱ Ἕλληνες, εἰπεῖν τὸν Δημάρατον εὔνουν ὄντα καὶ συνήθη ‘πάνυ γοῦν ὦ Φίλιππε καλὸν ἐστί σοι πυνθάνεσθαι μὲν περὶ τῆς Ἀθηναίων καὶ Πελοποννησίων ὁμοφροσύνης, τὴν δ᾽ οἰκίαν περιορᾶν τὴν σεαυτοῦ τοσαύτης στάσεως καὶ διχονοίας γέμουσαν’ εὖ δὲ καὶ Διογένης, ὃς ἐπεὶ παρελθὼν εἰς τὸ τοῦ Φιλίππου στρατόπεδον, ὅτε τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἐβάδιζε μαχούμενος, ἀνήχθη πρὸς αὐτόν, ὁ δ᾽ ἀγνοῶν ἠρώτησεν εἰ κατάσκοπός ἐστι, ‘πάνυ μὲν οὖν’ ἔφη ‘ κατάσκοπος ὦ Φίλιππε τῆς 2 ἀβουλίας σου καὶ τῆς ἀνοίας, δι᾽ ἣν οὐδενὸς ἀναγκάζοντος ἔρχῃ περὶ τῆς βασιλείας καὶ τοῦ σώματος ὥρᾳ μιᾷ διακυβεύσων.


The translation from Perseus (below) seems quite loose at best.

Now there are several accidental occasions administered by our friends themselves, which a person heartily solicitous for their interest will lay hold of. Thus some have taken an opportunity of censuring them freely from a question they have asked, from the relation of a story, or the praise or dispraise of the same actions in other men which they themselves have committed.
timruah
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Re: προοριζω in Plutarch

Postby jeidsath » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:29 pm

You've quoted from the Babbitt translation. For the section that you're talking about, it actually starts with "And so much concerning the timing our reproofs in general..."

The Goodwin translation is also available at Perseus:

Let thus much, then, serve to define the proper occasion in general. But the friend who is concerned for his friends must not let slip the occasions which they themselves often present, but he should turn these to account. For sometimes a question, the telling of a story, blame or commendation of like things in other people, may serve as an opening for frank speech. For example, Demaratus is said to have come to Macedonia during the time when Philip was at odds with his wife and son. Philip, after greeting him, inquired how well the Greeks were at harmony together ; and Demaratus, who knew him well and wished him well, said, ‘A glorious thing for you, Philip, to be inquiring about the concord of Athenians and Peloponnesians, while you let your own household be full of all this quarrelling and dissension!’ Excellent, too, was the retort of Diogenes on the occasion when he had entered Philip's camp and was brought before Philip himself, at the time when Philip was on his way to fight the Greeks. Not knowing who Diogenes was, Philip asked him if he were a spy. ‘Yes, indeed, Philip,’ he replied, ‘I am here to spy upon your ill-advised folly, because of which you, without any compelling reason, are on your way to hazard a kingdom and your life on the outcome of a single hour.’
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: προοριζω in Plutarch

Postby timruah » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:13 am

Thanks. I guess I wasn't quite as lost as I thought I was. I couldn't find anything in the translation that corresponded to ὁ μὲν οὖν κοινὸς οὕτω προωρίσθω καιρός.

Interesting, though, how this occurrence of προοριζω doesn't seem to derive anything from the prefix προ. It appears to be equivalent to simple οριζω here.
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Re: προοριζω in Plutarch

Postby jeidsath » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:27 pm

F.A. Adams demonstrates that the Greek prepositions usually carry meaning, even where you might think at first that they are being used at random if you are just looking at the lexicon meaning or the translation. Here, προωρίσθω refers back to times when the chastisement of friends is thought out ahead of time with an expected result

ἐν τίσιν οὖν σφοδρὸν εἶναι δεῖ τὸν φίλον καὶ πότε τῷ τόνῳ χρῆσθαι τῆς παρρησίας; ὅταν ἡδονῆς ἢ ὀργῆς ἢ ὕβρεως ἐπιλαβέσθαι φερομένης οἱ καιροὶ παρακαλῶσιν ἢ κολοῦσαι φιλαργυρίαν ἢ ἀπροσεξίαν ἀνασχεῖν ἀνόητον.


But προωρίσθω doesn't apply to the next sort of events that he talks about, which are chance opportunities

οὓς δὲ παρέχουσιν αὐτοὶ πολλάκις οὐ χρὴ προΐεσθαι τὸν κηδόμενον φίλων ἀλλὰ χρῆσθαι


Adams' book on Greek Prepositions is a great read at all levels, by the way.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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