ATHENAZE - BOOK I

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Amadeus
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ATHENAZE - BOOK I

Post by Amadeus »

Χαί?ετε!

Just wanted to ask a few questions about Athenaze.

1. It seems to me that the book is a bit sketchy on the grammar. For instance, in chapter 2β we learn the imperatives κάθευδε, βάδιζε, συλλάμβανε, φέ?ε, but then in chapter 3β Phillip says: "μηκέτι οὖν πόνει", and I don't get that last iota. My question is not why does this verb behave differently, but, rather, does the book explain this later? If so, does that mean I don't have to master each and every novelty, especially if it isn't mentioned in the grammar of the mini-chapter where it occurs?

2. Yesterday I was stunned to find out that the alpha declension is made of 4 types. I always thought that there were only 3 (thanks alot Thrasymachus). But anyway, my question is, how do you know a given word is declined like ὑδ?ίᾱ or like μάχαι?ᾰ? Is this one of those cases where you just have to know the declension? What about when I read Greek that doesn't have any macrons or breves?

Thanks for your help! :)
Last edited by Amadeus on Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Lucus Eques »

Χαῖ?ε, ὦ φίλε!

πόνει is the imperative for πονέω, which has that accented epsilon in there, while καθεύδω and others do not. This is the main difference, just these two types, and yes, it does explain later in detail.

As for the multiple α-declination types, yes they are a handful, but Athenaze is a good text with which to get accustomed to them, since all the macra are nicely written. Eventually you'll get an intuitive sense of them; for now I recommend writing out passages and just accipere res sic uti tibi aperiuntur..
L. Amādeus Rāniērius · Λ. Θεόφιλος Ῥᾱνιήριος 🦂

SCORPIO·MARTIANVS

modus.irrealis
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Re: ATHENAZE - BOOK I

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tico
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Post by tico »

"μηκέτι οὖν πόνει", and I don't get that last iota
This final ει comes from a contraction, since it's a contracted verb (contracted in -ε: πονέ-ω. So, for the imperative, 2nd p. sg., you have the following morphological constitution: stem (πονε-) + Thematic Vowel (-ε) and desinence (zero): πόνε-ε-0> πόνεε> πόνει (ε+ε=ει).

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Post by Amadeus »


Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by IreneY »

To tell you the truth your post caused a lot of head scratching since I use only two categories: the -α (ης) and the -α (ας). These are divided into two subcategories which, as I see it you don't really have to learn; One you know the accent rules etc (when alpha is short and when it's long) all other things fall into place :)

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Post by Amadeus »

IreneY wrote:To tell you the truth your post caused a lot of head scratching
Well, just don't scratch too hard. Your hair might start falling off. :lol:

I will certainly take your advice into consideration.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus »

Hello again,

I've been doing some reading on the Greek accent system and have two observations.

It is said that an acute accent can stand only on the antepenult if the ultima is short. But I found this in chapter 4a: "ἄγγελος γὰ? ἥκει ἀπο τοῦ ἄστεως". I don't believe εω is a diphthong... correct me if I'm wrong.

Also I did a small table to help me remember the rules:
Image

And I noticed something dissapointing. I thought I could differentiate the last two alpha declensions ᾱ [ᾱς], ᾰ [ᾱς] by the position of the accent. If it fell on the penult, then the ultima must be long, hence ᾱ [ᾱς], but if the above table is right, then the ultima could also be short. So there's no way out of memorizing which 1st declension words belong to either type. Correct? Am I making too much of this?

Gratias vobis atque valete!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by IreneY »

a) the nouns ending in -?ς -ῠς -ῠ (for neuter) having a vowel before the ending make their genitive in -ως and take their accent in the antepenult contrary to the rule. You see? No rule without exceptions :)

b) Let's see what we can do here.
i. if before the final alpha there's any consonant except rho the ending alpha is short. If there's a vowel or rho then it's long

ii.If there are three syllables and the ultimate is short then the antepenult will be accented, in all cases.

iii if the ultimate is short but there are only two syllables, if you are lucky the penultimate will be long so it'll take a circumflex. If not see the rule about the preceding letter.

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Post by modus.irrealis »



Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus »


Last edited by Amadeus on Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by modus.irrealis »

Amadeus wrote: Well, considering that a short vowel never takes the circumflex, I thought I leave the macron out.
That makes sense -- it seems I wasn't thinking right during my post :).
Yes, I partially based my little table on your rules, but I also added the last row: accute accent on short vowel in the penult, which caused my confusion. Guess I have to memorize then... nuts!
I see what you meant now, and again my thought processes were off there. I think, though, that you'll find that the ambiguous cases where you need to memorize are few, since many of those will be covered by the rule about the previous letter -- I was thinking of exceptions and I could only come up with μνᾶ (and then found Άθηνᾶ too), which are weird with their circumflex but that tells you the vowel's long anyway.

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Post by Amadeus »

Χαί?ετε, ὦ φίλοι!

I'm re-reading chapter 5a about contract verbs in -a-. The book shows 2 columns, one with the verb stem and the personal ending, and the other shows the verb as it actually appears in the text, i.e., contracted:

τιμά-ω.....................τιμῶ

Then, the book goes on to explain the "recessive" nature of the accents of finite verbs. E.g., τιμά-ομεν, τιμά-εις.

My question is, why do I have to know this? The reading texts don't show un-contracted verbs like τιμάομεν. It seems unnecesarily complex.

Thanks for your help. :)
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by modus.irrealis »

Amadeus wrote:My question is, why do I have to know this? The reading texts don't show un-contracted verbs like τιμάομεν. It seems unnecesarily complex.
I think the main reason it's presented this way is that it lets you claim that contracted verbs are as regular as un-contracted verbs if you look at the "underlying" form and lets you claim that rules like the recessive accent of verbs are not violated, and so you might consider this explanation to be more "elegant." I guess the end goal is to know how to conjugate these verbs, especially the differences in the -εω, -αω, and -οω conjugations, and using the contraction rules lets you reduce these verbs to un-contracted verbs, and explains the accentation nicely too, which I guess people have found to be easier than analyzing them as different conjugations. But I agree it's not perfect, e.g. there's the issue of knowing when α + ει > ᾳ and when α + ει > α, so there's still some plain old memorizing.

There's also the convention that the un-contracted form is given in dictionaries to let you know what kind of contracted verb it is, and that's convenient (although there's other options too).

And thirdly, you do come across un-contracted forms in non-Attic works, especially in Homer, so they don't come entirely out of nowhere. On second thought, though, I can't imagine un-contracted verbs giving someone problems even if they had never seen them before, so I don't think this is much a reason.

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Post by Didymus »



Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus »

modus.irrealis wrote:There's also the convention that the un-contracted form is given in dictionaries to let you know what kind of contracted verb it is, and that's convenient (although there's other options too).

And thirdly, you do come across un-contracted forms in non-Attic works, especially in Homer, so they don't come entirely out of nowhere.
These reasons are good enough, especially the last one. So these are the kind of differences between the dialects? Huh, it's not that complicated then to switch codes.
Didymus wrote:You can only determine the proper accentuation of the contracted forms by knowing where the accent would fall on the uncontracted forms. That, in a nutshell, is what Athenaze is trying to tell you.
Really? I'm also working with Thrasymachus and there the contracted verbs are not presented in their un-contracted form. That to me suggests that it's not so essential to know. But I'll certainly keep what you said in mind.

Thanks again for the help. :)
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Didymus »

Amadeus wrote:
Didymus wrote:You can only determine the proper accentuation of the contracted forms by knowing where the accent would fall on the uncontracted forms. That, in a nutshell, is what Athenaze is trying to tell you.
Really? I'm also working with Thrasymachus and there the contracted verbs are not presented in their un-contracted form. That to me suggests that it's not so essential to know. But I'll certainly keep what you said in mind.
Essential? Well, many blasphemers would tell you that correct accentuation in general is not worthwhile knowing. If you hold with that school of thought, then I wouldn't let this matter of accentuation bother you more than any other. If, however, you think that you have even the slightest inclination one day to know how to write accent marks correctly, I would advise you to start now. It's considered to be much easier to learn as you go along -- although this is less important for verbs (because, with only a few exceptions, the accents are simply recessive according to the "rules").

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Post by Amadeus »

Wow, I didn't know I was blaspheming. Veniam a te peto! :(
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Didymus »

Well, I dwell in a very holy and sanctimonius church, you see ... ;)

I consider you, by virtue of studying Greek, to be mentally and morally superior to 99.99% of the rest of humanity. This obtains whether you can write accent marks with ease and pleasure or not.

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Post by Amadeus »

Hahahae... I was only kidding, Didyme. But thanks for the compliment, it bolstered my self-esteem. :) You're cool too, amice. 8)
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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