Lysias. 24 4 ἂν and τε

[daivid]

περὶ μὲν οὖν τούτων τοσαῦτά μοι εἰρήσθω: ὑπὲρ ὧν δέ μοι προσήκει λέγειν, ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων ἐρῶ.

About therefore of these things this much let it be said: on behalf of the things which are to me a concern to say, as far as I should be able through brevity I will speak.

I can't quite see what ἂν and τε are doing. With ἂν I expect to see an optative or a subjunctive - I don't understand its role without these. τε usually conveys "and2 but that doesn't seem to be true here. Also it doesn't normally stand alone but it doesn't seem to me to be paired with anything here.

[Paul Derouda]

οἷόν τε/οἷός τε is an idiom and means something like "possible", "capable", "able".

οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων "as concisely/briefly as possible".

[Paul Derouda]

LSJ οἷος:
III. οἷος c. inf. implies fitness or ability for a thing, οὐ γὰρ ἦν ὥρα οἵα τὸ πεδίον ἄρδειν fit for watering, X.An.2.3.13, cf. Pl.Grg.487d; οἷοι φιλεῖν, μισεῖν, etc., D.25.2, etc.: freq. with τοιοῦτος expressed, τοιοῦτός τις οἷ. διαπονεῖσθαι Pl. Cra.395a, cf. R.415e; τὸ πρᾶγμα μέγα . . καὶ μὴ οἷ. νεωτέρῳ βουλεύσασθαι not proper for a young man to advise upon, Th.6.12: without inf., λόγους οἵους εἰς τὰ δικαστήρια Pl.Euthd.272a.
b. οἷός εἰμι I intend, ἐβιάζετο . . καὶ οἷος ἦν ἐξευρεῖν τὴν θύραν Lys.Fr.159 S., cf. D. 4.9, al., Is.8.21; οἷος ἦν κατεσθίειν was on the point of eating, Antig. Car. ap. Ath.7.345d.
2. more freq. οἷός τε c. inf., fit or able to do, λιποίμην οἷός τ’ . . ἀέθλια κάλ’ ἀνελέσθαι Od.21.117 (preceded by τοῖον ib.173), Hdt.1.29, 67,91; λέγειν οἷός τε κἀγώ Ar.Eq.343, cf. Th.3.16, Isoc.8.69, etc.; inclined to . . , Plb.3.90.5, J.AJ4.6.3: most freq. in neut. sg. and pl., οἷόν τε [ἐστί] it is possible to . . , Th.1.80, etc.; οἷά τε [ἐστί] Hdt.1.194, etc.; a dat. is sts. added, μὴ οἷόν τε εἶναι ἐμοὶ κωλῦσαι Th.7.14.
3. without inf., πάνυ προθύμως ὡς οἷός τ’ ἦν ἐπήραξεν Pl.Prt.314d: but mostly in neut., οἷόν τε [ἐστίν] it is possible, Isoc.9.9; οὐχ οἷόν τε ἐστίν Ar.Nu.198, etc.: with Sup., καλὸν ὡς οἷόν τε μάλιστα Pl.Prt.349e; ὡς οἷόν τε σμικρότατα Id.Prm.144b; ὡς οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων Id.Grg.449d: without Sup., φρίττειν . . ποιεῖ ὡς οἷόν τε πάντας Id.R.387c (dub. l.) ; ὡς οἷόν τε sts. so far as possible, of what cannot be done completely, D.8.75, Arist. Pol.1313a39, Luc.Im.3.

[daivid]

οἷόν τε/οἷός τε is an idiom and means something like "possible", "capable", "able".

οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων "as concisely/briefly as possible".

Thanks Paul that does clear up τε completely.

Anyone with suggestions about ἂν?

[bedwere]

ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε ᾖ

[daivid]

ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε ᾖ

I get that it ought to be obvious but for me it isn't.
EDIT
Do you mean that there is an implied ᾖ ?

[bedwere]

Yes. If you do a Google search you'll find several examples.

[jeidsath]

From Paul's LSJ reference:

with Sup., “καλὸν ὡς οἷόν τε μάλιστα” Pl.Prt.349e ; “ὡς οἷόν τε σμικρότατα” Id.Prm.144b ; “ὡς οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων” Id.Grg.449d

The first two make sense to me, but the third one -- a perfect parallel to the Lysias quote -- was hard because of the διά. In context in both passages, it must mean something like "as briefly as possible."

But then I realized that I was mentally parsing διά as "through," like Daivid. But this is wrong. See the LSJ "A. WITH GEN. II. of Time" section under διά. It refers to the interval of time.

So I'm not sure that εἶναι is the verb to be understood here. The διά implies motion, and I think it therefore has to be some speech verb. In fact, why not read ἐρῶ as subjunctive?

[Hylander]

why not read ἐρῶ as subjunctive

Because its tense is future and there is no future subjunctive in Greek.

Also, οἷόν is impersonal -- it doesn't agree with the subject of ἐρῶ.

Why in any event would it be subjunctive?

"I will speak about what I need to in as few words as [is] possible."

διὰ βραχυτάτων is a member of a cluster of idiomatic expressions meaning "in as few words as possible".

LSJ βραχύς :

3. of Number, few, ἐν βραχεῖ in few words, Pi.P.1.82, S.El.673; “ἐν βραχίστοις” Pi.I.6(5).59; “ἐν βραχυτέροις” Pl.Grg.449c; so διὰ βραχέων in few words, Id.Prt.336a; “ὡς ἂν δύνωμαι διὰ βραχυτάτων” D.27.3, Lys.16.9, cf. Pl.Grg.449c; “ὡς ἐν βραχυτάτοις” Antipho 1.18. Adv. βραχέως, ἀπολογεῖσθαι briefly, in few words, X.HG1.7.5.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Dbraxu%2Fs

[daivid]

Yes. If you do a Google search you'll find several examples.

I do know that Lysias is too difficult for me and normally I stick to writers that are closer to what I am capable of. The only reason I broke my resolution to avoid Lysias was because Smyth used it to illustrate dative of agent though to be fair - if had stuck with the first half I would have got Smyth's point without getting into deep water. However, having attempted the whole sentence I have spent and entire afternoon trying to figure it out.
If my ability was greater your hint would probably be enough but you seriously overestimate my ability.

Is my hunch correct that where there is an ἂν there will always be a subjunctive or a optative and where I don't see one I should assume a ᾖ?
Or is ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε ᾖ some special case?

I get that it is a good teaching technique to get people to work things out for themselves - they are more likely to remember but that only works if it if the task within the their capability. If I was capable of reading all those examples I might be able to answer those questions. At my ability when even the easy real Greek is something I decode not read, I feel like I am being asked to swim the English channel.

But then I realized that I was mentally parsing διά as "through," like Daivid. But this is wrong. See the LSJ "A. WITH GEN. II. of Time" section under διά. It refers to the interval of time.

I had a hunch I didn't understand the use of διά here.
Thanks for answering a question I hadn't posed.

[Hylander]

Is my hunch correct that where there is an ἂν there will always be a subjunctive or a optative

No, ἂν is used in the apodosis of contrary to fact conditions with the imperfect or aorist (or rarely pluperfect) indicative.

[jeidsath]

Thank you for the corrections, Hylander. However, perhaps ἄν is also possible with future (indicative).

https://www.jstor.org/stable/636577
http://www.jstor.org/stable/637451

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D197
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D208
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D216

[Hylander]

perhaps ἄν is also possible with future (indicative).

Perhaps, but that's definitely not what's going on here. ἄν is a constituent of what is basically a "general" relative clause, namely, ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε [ᾖ], which is subordinate to διὰ βραχυτάτων ἐρῶ. ἄν does not modify ἐρῶ.

LSJ διά:

c. of Manner (where διά with its Noun freq. serves as an Adv.), . . . also with Adjs., δ. βραχέων, δ. μακρῶν τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖσθαι, Isoc.14.3, Pl.Grg.449b; ἀποκρίνεσθαι δ. βραχυτάτων ibid. d; cf. infr. IV.