Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I have been reading Demosthenes’ Olynthiacs, using McQueen’s commentary, based off of MacGregor’s commentary. I thought that I would go back and translate some of what I had already read, to post here and to see if I actually understand it. Criticism would be welcome. I have noticed that McQueen seems to have based some of his commentary off of a slightly different version of the text.

Αντὶ πολλῶν ἄν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, χρημάτων ὑμᾶς ἑλέσθαι νομίζω, εἰ φανερὸν γένοιτο τὸ μέλλον συνοίσειν τῇ πόλει περὶ ὧν νυνὶ σκοπεῖτε.

Rather than much money, O men of Athens, I believe that you would choose — if the future were to become clear — to benefit the city in the matter you now consider.

ὅτε τοίνυν τοῦθ’ οὕτως ἔχει, προσήκει προθύμως ἐθέλειν ἀκούειν τῶν βουλομένων συμβουλεύσειν·

Since it is thuswise, it is proper to eagerly wish to hear the ones desiring to counsel you,

[McQueen says that προθύμως goes with ἀκούειν, which would make it “wish to eagerly hear”? I assume that he is saying that ἐθέλειν means “to be willing” here rather than “to wish.” Ie., according to the LSJ, ἐθέλω is “consent” in Homer, opp. to βούλομαι “εἰ βούλει, ἐγὼ ἐθέλω.” But also from the LSJ “to be willing (of consent rather than desire, v. βούλομαι 1), but also generally, wish.” So is προθύμως ἐθέλω something that a Greek would have said or not?]

οὐ γὰρ μόνον εἴ τι χρήσιμον ἐσκεμμένος ἥκει τις, τοῦτ’ ἂν ἀκούσαντες λάβοιτε,

for not only, if someone comes having worked out something useful, having heard you might take this [counsel],

ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς ὑμετέρας τύχης ὑπολαμβάνω πολλὰ τῶν δεόντων ἐκ τοῦ παραχρῆμ’ ἐνίοις ἂν ἐπελθεῖν εἰπεῖν,

but I am of the opinion that it’s even your luck that much of what is needful may occur on the moment to various ones speaking,

ὥστ’ ἐξ ἁπάντων ῥᾳδίαν τὴν τοῦ συμφέροντος ὑμῖν αἵρεσιν γενέσθαι.

so that out of everything it has become easy to pick out what is advantageous to you.

[Am I supposed to read τὴν as going with αἵρεσιν (why isn’t it neuter?), or am I supposed to read "ῥᾳδίαν τὴν τοῦ συμφέροντος ὑμῖν" adverbially?]
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Αντὶ πολλῶν ἄν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, χρημάτων ὑμᾶς ἑλέσθαι νομίζω, εἰ φανερὸν γένοιτο τὸ μέλλον συνοίσειν τῇ πόλει περὶ ὧν νυνὶ σκοπεῖτε.

Rather than much money, O men of Athens, I believe that you would choose — if the future were to become clear — to benefit the city in the matter you now consider.

εἰ φανερὸν γένοιτο τὸ μέλλον is not a parenthetical. μελλω in the sense of "be about to/going to" generally takes a future infinitive, here συνοίσειν. τὸ μέλλον συνοίσειν τῇ πόλει is a unit: "that which is/would be going to be beneficial to the city"

To make the structure clear, the English ordering needs to be adjusted: "I believe that if those things that would be [going to be] beneficial to the city concerning the matters which you are now considering were to be made clear, you would choose [that] in exchange for/instead of much money."

ἄν . . . ὑμᾶς ἑλέσθαι . . . εἰ φανερὸν γένοιτο is a "future less vivid" conditional in indirect discourse.

Note περὶ ὧν νυνὶ σκοπεῖτε -- relative "attraction", Dickey p. 84.


ὅτε τοίνυν τοῦθ’ οὕτως ἔχει, προσήκει προθύμως ἐθέλειν ἀκούειν τῶν βουλομένων συμβουλεύσειν·

Since it is thuswise, it is proper to eagerly wish to hear the ones desiring to counsel you,

προθύμως goes with ἀκούειν, though it really doesn't matter matter much. "willing to hear eagerly/with a favorable attitude/disposition", i.e., you won't close your ears to what it spoken

[McQueen says that προθύμως goes with ἀκούειν, which would make it “wish to eagerly hear”? I assume that he is saying that ἐθέλειν means “to be willing” here rather than “to wish.” Ie., according to the LSJ, ἐθέλω is “consent” in Homer, opp. to βούλομαι “εἰ βούλει, ἐγὼ ἐθέλω.” But also from the LSJ “to be willing (of consent rather than desire, v. βούλομαι 1), but also generally, wish.” So is προθύμως ἐθέλω something that a Greek would have said or not?]

οὐ γὰρ μόνον εἴ τι χρήσιμον ἐσκεμμένος ἥκει τις, τοῦτ’ ἂν ἀκούσαντες λάβοιτε,

for not only, if someone comes having worked out something useful, having heard you might take this [counsel],

τι χρήσιμον is the antecedent of τοῦτ’. "if someone arrives having thought out some useful [advice] [in advance], you would accept it after hearing it"

Here's a neat illustration of the contrast between perfect and aorist:

"arrives here having thought out some useful advice", i.e., he is here and he has brought with him useful advice that he has thought out in advance.

"after hearing it", i.e., you would hear it, and then you would accept it.


ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς ὑμετέρας τύχης ὑπολαμβάνω πολλὰ τῶν δεόντων ἐκ τοῦ παραχρῆμ’ ἐνίοις ἂν ἐπελθεῖν εἰπεῖν,

but I am of the opinion that it’s even your luck that much of what is needful may occur on the moment to various ones speaking,

ἀλλὰ καὶ -- "but also", picks up from οὐ μόνον

ἐνίοις ἂν ἐπελθεῖν εἰπεῖν -- "it might occur on the spur of the moment to some to say many of the things that are necessary". εἰπεῖν is infinitive complement of ἐπελθεῖν "occur to say", not a participle.


ὥστ’ ἐξ ἁπάντων ῥᾳδίαν τὴν τοῦ συμφέροντος ὑμῖν αἵρεσιν γενέσθαι.

so that out of everything it has become easy to pick out what is advantageous to you.

[Am I supposed to read τὴν as going with αἵρεσιν (why isn’t it neuter?), or am I supposed to read "ῥᾳδίαν τὴν τοῦ συμφέροντος ὑμῖν" adverbially?]

"so that from all [that has been said] the choice of what is advantageous to you might/would/should become easy" --this is a "natural" result clause, not "actual" result. The verb is infinitive; the subject, αἵρεσιν, is accusative; and ῥᾳδίαν is a predicate adjective. τὴν (fem.) goes with αἵρεσιν (also fem.). "it has become easy" would be "actual," not "natural" result. Dickey pp. 132-3.

N.B.: I tinkered with the discussion of the first sentence to make it clearer.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Thank you! All of discussion is very helpful — after all, I could simply be comparing my results to a translation. This is far more beneficial.

However, I’m not 100% sure that “might/would/should” is better for natural result clauses in the presence of an aorist infinitive. I’m in Norway at the moment, and can’t look up the Dickey reference, but Sidgwick’s discussion 49-54 is comprehensive. See especially 54, which I think is parallel:
§54….δημοσίᾳ τοσαῦτα κατεσκεύασαν ὥστε μηδενὶ ὑπερβολὴν λελεῖφθαι· ἰδίᾳ οὕτω σώφρονεσ ἦσαν ὥστε τὴν Ἀριστείδου οἰκίαν, (εἴ τις οἶδεν ὁποία ἐστίν), ὁρᾷ οὐδὲν σεμνοτέραν τῆς τοῦ δείτονος.—DEM. Olynth. iii.

‘Publicly they erected such buildings that it is not left for any one to surpass them’ [no emphasis on the fact: a mere consequence: ‘privately they were so simple in their habits, that if any one knows what the house of Aristeides is like, he sees’ [emphasis on the fact ‘that it is no grander than his neighbour’s.’
And here is the next section of the first Olynthiac:

Ὁ μὲν οὖν παρὼν καιρός, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, μόνον οὐχὶ λέγει φωνὴν ἀφιεὶς ὅτι τῶν πραγμάτων ὑμῖν ἐκείνων αὐτοῖς ἀντιληπτέον ἐστίν, εἴπερ ὑπὲρ σωτηρίας αὐτῶν φροντίζετε· ἡμεῖς δ' οὐκ οἶδ' ὅντινά μοι δοκοῦμεν ἔχειν τρόπον πρὸς αὐτά. ἔστι δὴ τά γ' ἐμοὶ δοκοῦντα, ψηφίσασθαι μὲν ἤδη τὴν βοήθειαν, καὶ παρασκευάσασθαι τὴν ταχίστην ὅπως ἐνθένδε βοηθήσετε (καὶ μὴ πάθητε ταὐτὸν ὅπερ καὶ πρότερον), πρεσβείαν δὲ πέμπειν, ἥτις ταῦτ' ἐρεῖ καὶ παρέσται τοῖς πράγμασιν· ὡς ἔστι μάλιστα τοῦτο δέος, μὴ πανοῦργος ὢν καὶ δεινὸς ἅνθρωπος πράγμασι χρῆσθαι, τὰ μὲν εἴκων, ἡνίκ' ἂν τύχῃ, τὰ δ' ἀπειλῶν (ἀξιόπιστος δ' ἂν εἰκότως φαίνοιτο), τὰ δ' ἡμᾶς διαβάλλων καὶ τὴν ἀπουσίαν τὴν ἡμετέραν, τρέψηται καὶ παρασπάσηταί τι τῶν ὅλων πραγμάτων.

While indeed the present moment, O men of Athens, almost speaks with a voice sending forth (saying) that the affairs before you must be taken part in, if really you are concerned with safety from them, but we appear to me to have I don’t know what sort of attitude towards them. Indeed, the matters are at least to me, appearing that we should already have voted to help and prepared the fastest to help starting now (and not suffer the same as before), and should send a delegation of some sort in order to speak these things and be present for the affairs; as this is our greatest fear, that being an evildoer and a man skillful at using events, sometime yielding, when he should do so, other times threatening (and it might reasonably seem his threats are worthy of belief), other times slandering us and our absence to turn and twist some [advantage] out of all of the affairs.

βοηθήσητε in most manuscripts. “appearing that we should already have…prepared the fastest, in order to help starting now and not suffer the same as before…”

ἥτις with future was something that we saw in a recent thread
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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ὥστ’ ἐξ ἁπάντων ῥᾳδίαν τὴν τοῦ συμφέροντος ὑμῖν αἵρεσιν γενέσθαι -- "it has become easy" is wrong--it would assert that the choice has in fact, actually become easy--emphasis would be on the fact. ὥστ’ . . . γενέσθαι is what Sidgwick calls "no emphasis on the fact: a mere consequence". What is needed here is a potential/modal expression in translation to indicate that the choice has not necessarily become easy. τοῦτ’ ἂν ἀκούσαντες λάβοιτε and ἐνίοις ἂν ἐπελθεῖν are potential, so the "mere consequence" that follows from them, ὥστ’ . . . γενέσθαι, has to be rendered as potential.

The aorist infinitive γενέσθαι indicates aspect, not tense.

Ὁ . . . παρὼν καιρός . . . λέγει φωνὴν ἀφιεὶς -- "speaks, sending forth a voice/sound that"

τῶν πραγμάτων ὑμῖν ἐκείνων αὐτοῖς ἀντιληπτέον ἐστίν -- you yourselves must get involved in those matters

εἴπερ ὑπὲρ σωτηρίας αὐτῶν φροντίζετε -- if you are concerned about your own (αὐτῶν) safety

ἔστι δὴ τά γ' ἐμοὶ δοκοῦντα -- this is what seems to me best [to do]:

ψηφίσασθαι μὲν ἤδη τὴν βοήθειαν, καὶ παρασκευάσασθαι τὴν ταχίστην ὅπως ἐνθένδε βοηθήσετε -- "[you should] immediately [here, not "already"] vote [to send] the assistance/reinforcements and get ready as quickly as possible to send help/reinforcements from here [Athens]". τὴν ταχίστην is adverbial.

πρεσβείαν δὲ πέμπειν, ἥτις ταῦτ' ἐρεῖ καὶ παρέσται τοῖς πράγμασιν -- send a delegation to tell [them] this and to be present/on location at the events

a delegation of some sort -- why "of some sort"? this is a relative clause of purpose. ἥτις is simply a relative pronoun.

δέος μὴ . . . τρέψηται καὶ παρασπάσηταί τι τῶν ὅλων πραγμάτων -- this is the skeleton of the structure; everything else is subordinate. so the translation needs to read "fear/concern that . . . he will turn etc."
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by mwh »

Demosthenes is great for studying word order, and these passages are no exception. Only if we process the Greek in the order in which it comes will we fully understand it, and any translation falls well short.

The Greek flows smoothly and rhythmically. Contributing to its elegance is avoidance of hiatus, except at syntactical breaks (where I see only five). More fastidious orators would have avoided even these. — Hence ταὐτὸν ὅπερ, not ταὐτὸ.

βοηθήσητε (purpose clause) is an easier reading than βοηθήσετε (ὅπως “how”), esp. coupled with παθητε. βοηθήσετε is more vivid, as well as lectio difficilior, and is undoubtedly right. — We might be used to translating οπως differently in different syntactical situations, but it’s all one and the same οπως, as this mixed construction shows.

Hylander's done the heavy lifting with the syntax, via translation. I'll just note:
ὡς ἔστι μάλιστα τοῦτο δέος: δεος predicative (lit. since there is especially this as a fear).
πανοῦργος ὢν καὶ δεινὸς ἅνθρωπος: ἅνθρωπος (ὁ ἄνθρ.) is subject, δεινος part of the participial phrase.

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Timothée »

mwh wrote:More fastidious orators would have avoided even these.
May I presume Lysias, on whom we're having a thread at the moment, includes these?

One person once said that Demosthenes' genius can sometimes (or even frequently?) border on madness, something which one doesn't expect apud Lysiam. But then again, L. was a teacher.

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Where's the thread on Lysias? You don't mean Plato's Lysis, do you?

I think Isocrates was the most fastidious of all, though he wasn't really an orator.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Timothée »

The thread on hemlock and Socrates. :) The mistake I made when Joel first opened the thread, and it took me a few messages until I realised that Joel hadn't misspelt the rubrique... :?

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by mwh »

The thing about limp-wristed Isocrates is not just his smoothness but also his mania for balance and roundedness—very tiresome. Macho Demosthenes wouldn’t have any of that. His style is uniquely vigorous. Madness no, vehemence yes. Everything about his rhetoric is calculated with a view to its persuasive effect. Same with other orators, of course, including Cicero, except Cicero’s main concern, like Isocrates’ or Donald Trump’s, was himself, Demosthenes’ his fatherland. Untrue, no doubt, for they were all up for hire by private clients, but that’s the impression he gives in his political speeches. A man with a cause, like Bernie Sanders, however unsuccessful the cause.

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Isocrates had a cause, too, but it was just the opposite of Demosthenes. Isn't it a bit unfair to say that his main concern was himself? I like his style, too, at least for a few pages.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

εἴπερ ὑπὲρ σωτηρίας αὐτῶν φροντίζετε -- if you are concerned about your own (αὐτῶν) safety
In singular that would be ἑαυτῶν φροντίζει? Shouldn't I have expected ὑμῶν αὐτῶν φροντίζετε in that case?

The next section:

οὐ μὴν ἀλλ' ἐπιεικῶς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τοῦθ' ὃ δυσμαχώτατόν ἐστι τῶν Φιλίππου πραγμάτων, καὶ βέλτιστον ὑμῖν· τὸ γὰρ εἶναι πάντων ἐκεῖνον ἕν' ὄντα κύριον καὶ ῥητῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων καὶ ἅμα στρατηγὸν καὶ δεσπότην καὶ ταμίαν, καὶ πανταχοῦ αὐτὸν παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι, πρὸς μὲν τὸ τὰ τοῦ πολέμου ταχὺ καὶ κατὰ καιρὸν πράττεσθαι πολλῷ προέχει, πρὸς δὲ τὰς καταλλαγάς, ἃς ἂν ἐκεῖνος ποιήσαιτ' ἄσμενος πρὸς Ὀλυνθίους, ἐναντίως ἔχει.

Not but truly, O men of Athens, that which is fairly well hard to combat of Phillip’s affairs, is also best to you. For the being of that one in all things a single lord, of speeches and secrets, and at the same time general and master and steward, and being everywhere present to help the army, as towards the conducting of the elements of war quickly and in time, in a great degree he has the advantage, yet towards reconciliations, which that one would gladly make with the Olynthians, it is the opposite.

Not an orator, but the story about Alcibiades and his dog seems to fit Trump perfectly. It's harder to find Hillary parallels, but didn't Xenophon have a plan to import massive numbers of slaves to save the economy? But I'm finding Macedonian and Athens more interesting than America and the EU.

........................ἄχθομαι δὲ καὶ φέρω
τὰ τῆς πόλεως ἅπαντα βαρέως πράγματα.
ὁρῶ γὰρ αὐτὴν προστάταισι χρωμένην
ἀεὶ πονηροῖς. κἄν τις ἡμέραν μίαν
χρηστὸς γένηται, δέκα πονηρὸς γίγνεται.
ἐπέτρεψας ἑτέρῳ· πλείον᾿ ἔτι δράσει κακά.

But I hate and am distressed by all of the difficult affairs of my city. For I see her always intimate with the front-rank evildoers. And if for a single day someone becomes good, he becomes evil for ten. Having given way towards another, that one will do even more evil.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

σωτηρίας αὐτῶν -- looking at this again, I think refers back to τῶν πραγμάτων: something like "if you are concerned about a secure outcome for these events".

οὐ μὴν ἀλλ' more like "and yet"

I'll come back to this. I don't have time for more right now.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Thanks, please take your time coming back to it, but I am finding all of the comments very useful. I'll continue posting snippets has I have time.

δῆλον γάρ ἐστι τοῖς Ὀλυνθίοις ὅτι νῦν οὐ περὶ δόξης οὐδ' ὑπὲρ μέρους χώρας πολεμοῦσιν, ἀλλ' ἀναστάσεως καὶ ἀνδραποδισμοῦ τῆς πατρίδος, καὶ ἴσασιν ἅ τ' Ἀμφιπολιτῶν ἐποίησε τοὺς παραδόντας αὐτῷ τὴν πόλιν καὶ Πυδναίων τοὺς ὑποδεξαμένους· καὶ ὅλως ἄπιστον, οἶμαι, ταῖς πολιτείαις ἡ τυραννίς, ἄλλως τε κἂν ὅμορον χώραν ἔχωσι.

For it is clear to the Olynthians that now neither for glory nor for a part of land do they fight, but over the eviction and enslavement of their homeland. And they know what also he did to the men of Amphipolis who betrayed to him their city and those of Pydna who received [him], also that a tyrant is generally an object of mistrust, I think, to free states, both to others and especially to those who should border his country.

“an object of mistrust” I take from McQueen, who mentions that ἄπιστον is neuter. It makes sense to me, especially with ἄπιστον coming first as it does. He also says that ὅλως is more common as “generally” than “entirely.” Neither meaning would I have gotten on my own.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

It would probably be better to try to frame the translations in good English, rather than in a literal word-for-word translation from the Greek. Otherwise, it's a little difficult to tell whether you understand the syntax. How do you explain this syntactically in 1.4:

τὸ γὰρ εἶναι πάντων ἐκεῖνον ἕν' ὄντα κύριον καὶ ῥητῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων καὶ ἅμα στρατηγὸν καὶ δεσπότην καὶ ταμίαν, καὶ πανταχοῦ αὐτὸν παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι

οὐ μὴν ἀλλ' -- just "yet", "however"

ἐπιεικῶς -- "reasonably". The adverb applies to the whole statement τοῦθ' ὃ δυσμαχώτατόν ἐστι τῶν Φιλίππου πραγμάτων, καὶ βέλτιστον ὑμῖν. You could translate it "it is reasonable to think/suppose that . . . "

δυσμαχώτατόν etc.: the sense is: what makes Philip so difficult to combat is also very favorable to you

τὸ γὰρ εἶναι πάντων ἐκεῖνον ἕν' ὄντα κύριον -- the fact that he is solely in charge of everything

ῥητῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων -- open and secret

ἅμα στρατηγὸν καὶ δεσπότην καὶ ταμίαν -- he is all of these things at the same time (not "at the same time, he is")

πανταχοῦ αὐτὸν παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι -- he's with the army everywhere (wherever it happens to be)

κατὰ καιρὸν -- at the right moment

ἃς ἂν ἐκεῖνος -- "that one"? just "which he would".

καταλλαγάς -- best translated by the singular "a reconciliation" or "composition"

ἐναντίως ἔχει -- this isn't impersonal. The subject is Philip--it balances προέχει. Something like "he is in just the opposite situation." εχειν + adverb -- to be in a certain condition or situation -- πως εχεις;

"but with regard to the composition he would be happy to make with the Olynthians, he's in the opposite situation/his situation is just the reverse"

Moving on:

ἀλλ' ἀναστάσεως καὶ ἀνδραποδισμοῦ -- I would translate something like "they are fighting over the possibility of being displaced and enslaved"

ἴσασιν ἅ τ' Ἀμφιπολιτῶν ἐποίησε τοὺς παραδόντας αὐτῷ τὴν πόλιν καὶ Πυδναίων τοὺς ὑποδεξαμένους

Just τε . . . και, so "also" is out of place here.

τοὺς ὑποδεξαμένους -- ὑπο- suggests secrecy or treachery: some Pydnaeans apparently let Philip into the city surreptitiously.

ἄλλως τε κἂν (και εαν)-- "especially if". No need for "both to others and" (here it would be "both otherwise and if")
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Hylander wrote:It would probably be better to try to frame the translations in good English, rather than in a literal word-for-word translation from the Greek. Otherwise, it's a little difficult to tell whether you understand the syntax. How do you explain this syntactically in 1.4:

τὸ γὰρ εἶναι πάντων ἐκεῖνον ἕν' ὄντα κύριον καὶ ῥητῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων καὶ ἅμα στρατηγὸν καὶ δεσπότην καὶ ταμίαν, καὶ πανταχοῦ αὐτὸν παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι
I struggled with the English because I was having some trouble. I see first a substantized phrase (is that the term), governed by τὸ εἶναι, with subject ἐκεῖνον, and extending to the comma. Since we're in the middle of a noun phrase (article + infinitive), the other verb (ὄντα) is a participle. I don't quite understand why it needs both verbs, the infinitive and the participle, unless it means something like "the being that he existed as."

I guessed that the τὸ carried over to παρεῖναι as well, making a second substantized phrase, subject now αὐτὸν (but still Phillip). If I'm not supposed to understand τὸ παρεῖναι, I don't know why it's infinitive.

Is that what you are asking for?
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

τὸ γὰρ εἶναι . . . καὶ . . . παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι -- this long articular infinitive phrase/clause, I think, is an adverbial accusative or accusative of respect (these terms are really more or less the same thing), modifying the predicate πολλῷ προέχει and maybe ἐναντίως ἔχει.

τὸ γὰρ εἶναι πάντων ἐκεῖνον ἕν' ὄντα κύριον κτλ

εἶναι . . . ἐκεῖνον . . . κύριον -- verb + subject + predicate adjective -- 'the fact that he is in charge of everything"

ἕν' ὄντα -- attributive participial phrase -- "being one [man]"

The point D. is making is that as a single individual in charge of everything, he has a free hand to act more decisively and expeditiously than the Athenian democracy, where decisions can only be taken after open debate with more cumbersome procedures.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by mwh »

ὑπὲρ σωτηρίας αὐτῶν. Hylander’s second thoughts are right: αυτων refers to the πραγματα heading the leading clause. “Your (own) safety/security” wd be της υμετερας σωτηριας or της υμετερας αὐτων σωτηριας (“your very own”), sandwiched between article and noun (i.e. attributive). Sing. wd be της σεαυτοῦ σωτηριας (σεαυτῆς if you’re female). αυτων can mean either “their,” as here (following its noun), or quasi-adjectively “of (X them/your/our)selves”; υμῶν αυτῶν wd be “of (you) yourselves," as in e.g. αναξιως υμων αυτων πραττετε “you’re acting in a manner unworthy of yourselves,” and there are occasions when the υμων could be dispensed with, but that’s not what’s going on here.

ου μην αλλα is the infamous “Not but what”. Today translate something like “Despite all this.” It’s strong (like everything else in Dem.).

πανταχοῦ αὐτὸν παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι. I take the αυτον as intensive (what I just called quasi-adjectival, strictly predicative), “himself,” “in person,” the subject still being εκεινον. “He’s personally present”

τὸ γὰρ εἶναι πάντων ἐκεῖνον ἕν᾿ ὄντα κύριον καὶ ῥητῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων καὶ ἅμα στρατηγὸν καὶ δεσπότην καὶ ταμίαν, καὶ πανταχοῦ αὐτὸν παρεῖναι τῷ στρατεύματι, πρὸς μὲν τὸ τὰ τοῦ πολέμου ταχὺ καὶ κατὰ καιρὸν πράττεσθαι πολλῷ προέχει, πρὸς δὲ τὰς καταλλαγάς, ἃς ἂν ἐκεῖνος ποιήσαιτ᾿ ἄσμενος πρὸς Ὀλυνθίους, ἐναντίως ἔχει.
At first the listener/reader takes the articular infin. (το ειναι εκεινον … και ... παρειναι τω στρατευματι) as nominative, but by the time προεχει rolls around he may unconsciously register Philip as the subject—the shift is so slight (for προεχει and εναντιως εχει could be used impersonally) as to slip by without being noticed. Only in retrospect might we readers want to ask what case the το was.
There shouldn’t really be a comma before και πανταχου: το – στρατευματι is all one noun phrase. Note the το is not repeated for the second infin.

πολλῷ προέχει “has the advantage by far” (“dat. of measure of difference”!), “has an enormous advantage over you”

καὶ ὅλως is often used when generalizing or summing up after giving a number of particular instances. It can be hard to translate, and I can’t do better than “and all in all” or “taking everything together.” As if to say, Look what happened to the Amphipolitans and the Pydnaeans, "—and altogether, I reckon, tyranny is …”. The και is “and” not “also.”

ἄπιστον, οἶμαι, ταῖς πολιτείαις ἡ τυραννίς. Yes, απιστον neuter more general than απιστος would be, almost “Tyranny is a thing not to be trusted by citizen-states.” E.g. αγαθὸν ἡ δίκη, justice is a good.

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Per Hylander, I'm trying to put down what I think it means in good English rather than a literal translation (hopefully this will be more fun all around -- I certainly like it better this way).

ταῦτ' οὖν ἐγνωκότας ὑμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ τἄλλ' ἃ προσήκει πάντ' ἐνθυμουμένους φημὶ δεῖν ἐθελῆσαι καὶ παροξυνθῆναι καὶ τῷ πολέμῳ προσέχειν εἴπερ ποτὲ καὶ νῦν, χρήματ' εἰσφέροντας προθύμως καὶ αὐτοὺς ἐξιόντας καὶ μηδὲν ἐλλείποντας. οὐδὲ γὰρ λόγος οὐδὲ σκῆψις ἔθ' ὑμῖν τοῦ μὴ τὰ δέοντα ποιεῖν ἐθέλειν ὑπολείπεται. νυνὶ γάρ, ὃ πάντες ἐθρύλουν τέως, Ὀλυνθίους ἐκπολεμῶσαι δεῖν Φιλίππῳ, γέγονεν αὐτόματον, καὶ ταῦθ' ὡς ἂν ὑμῖν μάλιστα συμφέροι. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ὑφ' ὑμῶν πεισθέντες ἀνείλοντο τὸν πόλεμον, σφαλεροὶ σύμμαχοι καὶ μέχρι του ταῦτ' ἂν ἐγνωκότες ἦσαν ἴσως· ἐπειδὴ δ' ἐκ τῶν πρὸς αὑτοὺς ἐγκλημάτων μισοῦσι, βεβαίαν εἰκὸς τὴν ἔχθραν αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχειν.

You know this already, men of Athens, and you know the other things which you ought to be enthusiastic for, and being enthusiastic I say that you must consent both to rouse yourselves and to be attentive to the war — now of all times — eagerly contributing money and going out campaigning in person and leaving no detail undone. No reason or excuse remains for you that you should not be willing to do what is necessary. At this very moment, which everyone was twittering about up until now saying that the Olynthians must fight Phillip, it has come about of its own accord, and this in the way as might be most to your benefit. For if they had conducted the war at your urging, they would have likely been slippery allies, only allies to the degree that they were sure of anything, but since they hate Phillip for their own reasons, their enmity is assured by what they themselves fear and have experienced from him.

“ἃ προσήκει πάντ’” — “which you ought to be enthusiastic for,” adding ἐνθυμεῖσθαι from the following particle, per McQueen.

“ὃ πάντες ἐθρύλουν τέως” — “which everyone was twittering about up until now [saying],” McQueen takes this first person, but I’ve left it as I took it since it makes sense and I don’t understand the case of πάντες otherwise. There is a manuscript variant ἐθρυλεῖτε.

“καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχειν” — “and have experienced from him,” perfect, so the fact of experiencing something is their current state. The ἔχειν works like in κακῶς ἔχειν. It seems to refer to their state as a result of Philip's actions, so the "from him." But I'm not sure how best to put it into English.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

This is mostly very good. A few suggestions:

ἐνθυμουμένους -- "considering," "taking into account", not "being enthusiastic". Don't be confused by English.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ume%2Fomai

καὶ τἄλλ' ἃ προσήκει πάντ' ἐνθυμουμένους -- "and taking into consideration all the other things which you ought to [take into consideration]. Translating ἐγνωκότας and ἐνθυμουμένους as English participles might make the syntax clearer, but it would be much more awkward. You could make φημὶ parenthetical, which it isn't in Greek, to avoid making the Greek participles dangling or appearing to modify "I": "Recognizing these things, and taking into consideration . . ., I say, you must . . ."

I might translate ἐθελῆσαι as "willingly," but your translation makes the syntax clear and shows you understand it.

παροξυνθῆναι -- "be spurred to action", the same metaphor in English, I think.

was twittering about -- here English perfect would be more appropriate. "Chattering" might be better. "Has been chattering." ἐθρύλουν is transitive here, so "about" is maybe not quite correct.

ἀνείλοντο τὸν πόλεμον -- "had undertaken war" would be better.

μέχρι του -- του is unaccented: it's the genitive of the enclitic τι, an alternative form of τινος, not the genitive of the article. μέχρι του -- "to some extent"; "and perhaps to some extent they would have recognized that."

τῶν πρὸς αὑτοὺς ἐγκλημάτων -- ἐγκλημάτων is "demands"; "the demands on them". Philip has made demands on the Olynthians (with threats, of course), that they turn over to him his half-brother, I think, who have taken refuge in Olynthus, or else!, as his pretext for his actions in Chalcidice.

βεβαίαν εἰκὸς τὴν ἔχθραν αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχειν -- the main verbal nucleus is εἰκος [εστι], "it is likely that", with predicative βεβαίαν fronted for emphasis (contrasted with σφαλεροὶ). Everything should fall into place after that. Try translating again, treating this as a unit subordinate to εἰκος:

βεβαίαν τὴν ἔχθραν αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχειν

What is the subject of this unit? What is the main verb?

ὃ πάντες ἐθρύλουν τέως -- you are right. I'd suggest checking again to make sure you understand what the commentary says.
Last edited by Hylander on Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

A closer look at the commentary shows me that I misread it.
McQueen: ἐθρύλουν τέως: from θρυλέω 'I keep talking about', 'I have constantly on my lips', while τέως means 'hitherto', 'up till then'.
I mentally inserted a period after θρυλέω and misread the definition as a gloss.
Hylander wrote:βεβαίαν εἰκὸς τὴν ἔχθραν αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχειν -- the main verbal nucleus is εἰκος [εστι], "it is likely that", with predicative βεβαίαν fronted for emphasis (contrasted with σφαλεροὶ). Everything should fall into place after that. Try translating again, treating this as a unit subordinate to εἰκος:

βεβαίαν τὴν ἔχθραν αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχειν

What is the subject of this unit? What is the main verb?
Oh, I see now. ὑπὲρ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν is a unit. I was wrongly tacking ἔχειν onto the end of it. Turning it finite to make the subject and main verb obvious: βεβαίαν τὴν ἔχθραν οἱ Ὀλύνθιοι ὑπερ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχουσιν.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Turning it finite to make the subject and main verb obvious: βεβαίαν τὴν ἔχθραν οἱ Ὀλύνθιοι ὑπερ ὧν φοβοῦνται καὶ πεπόνθασιν ἔχουσιν.
Right.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Demosthenes misrepresents Philip's supposed weaknesses and Athens' strengths. He also tells shameless lies, or at least distortions, when it suits his purposes.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I forgot to mention this note from McQueen earlier on.
δῆλον γάρ ἐστι τοῖς Ὀλυνθίοις ὅτι: an iambic trimeter, followed immediately by a 'limping iambic' or scazon. Since Aristotle maintains that the iambic metre is close to ordinary speech, Demosthenes' use of verse is certainly unintentional, and not without parallel.
He goes on to list some other examples. But on with the show, picking up in 1.8.

οὐ δεῖ δὴ τοιοῦτον, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, παραπεπτωκότα καιρὸν ἀφεῖναι, οὐδὲ παθεῖν ταὐτὸν ὅπερ ἤδη πολλάκις πρότερον πεπόνθατε. εἰ γάρ, ὅθ' ἥκομεν Εὐβοεῦσιν βεβοηθηκότες καὶ παρῆσαν Ἀμφιπολιτῶν Ἱέραξ καὶ Στρατοκλῆς ἐπὶ τουτὶ τὸ βῆμα, κελεύοντες ἡμᾶς πλεῖν καὶ παραλαμβάνειν τὴν πόλιν, τὴν αὐτὴν παρειχόμεθ' ἡμεῖς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν προθυμίαν ἥνπερ ὑπὲρ τῆς Εὐβοέων σωτηρίας, εἴχετ' ἂν Ἀμφίπολιν τότε καὶ πάντων τῶν μετὰ ταῦτ' ἂν ἦτ' ἀπηλλαγμένοι πραγμάτων. καὶ πάλιν ἡνίκα Πύδνα, Ποτείδαια, Μεθώνη, Παγασαί, τἄλλα, ἵνα μὴ καθ' ἕκαστα λέγων διατρίβω, πολιορκούμεν' ἀπηγγέλλετο, εἰ τότε τούτων ἑνὶ τῷ πρώτῳ προθύμως καὶ ὡς προσῆκεν ἐβοηθήσαμεν αὐτοί, ῥᾴονι καὶ πολὺ ταπεινοτέρῳ νῦν ἂν ἐχρώμεθα τῷ Φιλίππῳ. νῦν δὲ τὸ μὲν παρὸν ἀεὶ προϊέμενοι, τὰ δὲ μέλλοντ' αὐτόματ' οἰόμενοι σχήσειν καλῶς, ηὐξήσαμεν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, Φίλιππον ἡμεῖς καὶ κατεστήσαμεν τηλικοῦτον ἡλίκος οὐδείς πω βασιλεὺς γέγονεν Μακεδονίας.

It is necessary, men of Athens, for you not to let a chance like this pass by, nor for you to experience the same thing which you have already experienced many times before. If, when we came to the rescue of Euboea — when Hierax and Stratocles were present from Amphipolis, urging us to sail and take over the city from this very speaker’s stand — we had been showing the same enthusiasm for our own safety as for that of Euboea, we would have had Amphipolis at that time and been free of all of the problems that came after. Again, when Pydna, Poteidaea, Methone, Pagasae — and so many others that I wouldn’t have time to list each one — when the news of their sieges was brought, if at that time we ourselves had eagerly helped one of these first, as was proper, we would have found Phillip weaker and easier to deal with than now. But now, always letting the present pass by while thinking that the future will take care of itself, we have amplified Phillip ourselves, men of Athens, and set him in a position so powerful as no king of Macedonia has been before.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Good. A few suggestions:

οὐ δεῖ -- here, better "you must not"

παραπεπτωκότα -- παρα- conveys the idea of a "windfall", an opportunity that has fallen into your hands beyond expectation

ἥκομεν Εὐβοεῦσιν βεβοηθηκότες -- "when we had come [here], [back from] having aided the Euboeans", i.e., when we had come to the boule, where the speaker's stand stood, "and Hierax and Stratocles were right here on this very speaker's stand, urging . . . "

ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν -- just "on our own behalf" rather than "on behalf of our own security". If "τῆς . . . σωτηρίας were to be supplied, you would at least have the article τῆς, but it would be strange to supply a subsequent noun (as opposed to a previous one).

ἦτ' ἀπηλλαγμένοι -- "you would have gotten rid of [and been free from]"

ἡνίκα Πύδνα, Ποτείδαια, Μεθώνη, Παγασαί, τἄλλα . . . πολιορκούμεν' ἀπηγγέλλετο, -- ἀπηγγέλλετο is passive, "when Pydna . . . the others were reported to be under siege". Note that the listed entities are all nominative, including τἄλλα (we can infer that from the proper nouns), and ἀπηγγέλλετο is imperfect passive singular, in concord with neuter plural τἄλλα. So the syntax is quite normal; this isn't an instance of anacoluthon, as your translation (which is ok but not literal) made it out to be.

τἄλλα, ἵνα μὴ καθ' ἕκαστα λέγων διατρίβω, "and the others -- literally, "so that I don't waste time mentioning them one by one"

προθύμως καὶ ὡς προσῆκεν -- literally, "willingly and as was/would have been appropriate/the right thing to do"

ῥᾴονι καὶ πολὺ ταπεινοτέρῳ νῦν ἂν ἐχρώμεθα τῷ Φιλίππῳ -- your translation is ok though not entirely literal. To render this more literally, or at least to reflect the syntax more closely, maybe: "we would now be dealing with Philip more easily and [with him] in a much weaker position".

νῦν δὲ -- particularly after a contrary-to-fact condition, this typically means "but as it is", contrasting the "would have been" with the "is." Not "but now."

τὸ μὲν παρὸν ἀεὶ προϊέμενοι, -- maybe "always letting go of the present circumstances".

ηὐξήσαμεν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, Φίλιππον ἡμεῖς -- ἡμεῖς is very emphatic, placed at the end (and not necessary in a language with optional subject pronouns): "it is none other than we ourselves who have strengthened Philip and set him up in a position . . . "
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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εἰ γάρ, . . . τὴν αὐτὴν παρειχόμεθ' ἡμεῖς . . . , εἴχετ' ἂν Ἀμφίπολιν τότε καὶ πάντων τῶν μετὰ ταῦτ' ἂν ἦτ' ἀπηλλαγμένοι πραγμάτων.

Can you explain the tenses here?
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Hylander wrote:εἰ γάρ, . . . τὴν αὐτὴν παρειχόμεθ' ἡμεῖς . . . , εἴχετ' ἂν Ἀμφίπολιν τότε καὶ πάντων τῶν μετὰ ταῦτ' ἂν ἦτ' ἀπηλλαγμένοι πραγμάτων.

Can you explain the tenses here?
I will do my best. This is a privative conditional. εἰ <past tense of the indicative>, ἄν <past tense of the indicative>. If it had been so, it would have been (but is not).

Protasis: παρειχόμεθα is imperfect because the display of enthusiasm continues. Aorist would be a single act of enthusiasm.

Apodosis part 1: εἴχετε is imperfect and not aorist because they would have continued to hold the city until the present. Aorist would work, but it would mean that they took the city (and say nothing about what happened afterward).

Apodosis part 2: ἦτε is imperfect (not subjunctive) and means that that perfect state of ἀπηλλαγμένοι would have continued until the present. The perfect is a not a past state and ἀπηλλάχατε could not have been used directly in a privative conditional.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Privative? Where did you come up with that? Oh, I see--Sidgwick. Contrary to fact or contrafactual or unreal are the terms I've seen, which to me are more descriptive and hence more useful.

ἦτ' ἀπηλλαγμένοι is the periphrastic pluperfect medio-passive, not really imperfect, but it functions like an imperfect.

What struck me about this is that usually the imperfect is used for present contrary to fact conditionals: if X were, Y would be; while aorist is used for past contrary to fact conditionals: if X had been, Y would have been.

Here we seem to have imperfects (including the pluperfect) used for past contrary to fact conditions. Demosthenes is speaking about events that occurred in the past (τότε). You translated them correctly, I think. But perhaps the imperfects convey continuing situations in the past, as opposed to simple facts, like the imperfect indicative in non-conditional main clauses. Maybe mwh would have something to say about this.

we would have had Amphipolis -- better, we would have held Amphipolis.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by mwh »

You’re both right, I’d say. Impf.+ἄν normally refers simply to the present (non-)situation, as in the continuation here, which incidentally illustrates the difference between aorist and imperfect: εἰ τότε τούτων ἑνὶ τῷ πρώτῳ προθύμως καὶ ὡς προσῆκεν ἐβοηθήσαμεν αὐτοί, ῥᾴονι καὶ πολὺ ταπεινοτέρῳ νῦν ἂν ἐχρώμεθα τῷ Φιλίππῳ.“If we had ridden to the rescue then (when reports of the sieges were coming in), we’d be finding Philip easier to deal with now.” [But we did not, and so we are not.]
But it can also refer to ongoing past situations, as here with εἴχετ᾿ ἂν Ἀμφίπολιν τότε. In full this will mean “you’d have been having/holding/possessing Amphipolis right then and would still be holding it.” Similarly with the if-clause.
καὶ πάντων τῶν μετὰ ταῦτ᾿ ἂν ἦτ᾿ ἀπηλλαγμένοι πραγμάτων “and you’d (now) be rid of all your subsequent troubles.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I had some trouble with "ἑνὶ τῷ πρώτῳ." I put "one of these first," but that was really just a guess.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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εἰ τότε τούτων ἑνὶ τῷ πρώτῳ … ἐβοηθήσαμεν αὐτοί
If at that time we had ourselves gone to the aid of just one of these places, the very first (that was besieged? that made an appeal to us?). If we’d nipped it in the bud, domino theory.

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

νυνὶ δὴ καιρὸς ἥκει τις, οὗτος ὁ τῶν Ὀλυνθίων, αὐτόματος τῇ πόλει, ὃς οὐδενός ἐστιν ἐλάττων τῶν προτέρων ἐκείνων. καὶ ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ τις ἄν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, δίκαιος λογιστὴς τῶν παρὰ τῶν θεῶν ἡμῖν ὑπηργμένων καταστάς, καίπερ οὐκ ἐχόντων ὡς δεῖ πολλῶν, ὅμως μεγάλην ἂν ἔχειν αὐτοῖς χάριν, εἰκότως· τὸ μὲν γὰρ πόλλ' ἀπολωλεκέναι κατὰ τὸν πόλεμον τῆς ἡμετέρας ἀμελείας ἄν τις θείη δικαίως, τὸ δὲ μήτε πάλαι τοῦτο πεπονθέναι πεφηνέναι τέ τιν’ ἡμῖν συμμαχίαν τούτων ἀντίρροπον, ἂν βουλώμεθα χρῆσθαι, τῆς παρ' ἐκείνων εὐνοίας εὐεργέτημ' ἂν ἔγωγε θείην.

Now indeed has an opportunity come to our city, this one regarding the Olynthians, which is not at all less than the previous ones. And for myself at least, men of Athens, I think that someone set up as a just judge of what we have received from the gods, would say that although many have not what they need, all the same we have a great blessing from them, it seems. Our great losses at the hands of the enemy he might rightly ascribe to our carelessness, but our not suffering this long before and an alliance which has appeared to us, should we wish to take advantage of it, at least for me, I might judge as kindnesses done of the goodwill from the gods.

Why is καταστάς active and not passive or middle? Set himself as judge?

I like how he finishes up with ἔγωγε θείην rather than θείη.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Some suggestions:

νυνὶ δὴ -- "but now", contrasting previous incidents listed immediately before where Athens failed to act. νυν-ὶ is emphatic and δὴ reinforces it, "at last." Maybe "But this time, at last . . . "

αὐτόματος -- predicative, "on its own," "of its own accord". The opportunity has presented itself on its own.

τῶν παρὰ τῶν θεῶν ἡμῖν ὑπηργμένων -- beneficial acts which have been initiated/performed on our behalf from/by the gods

καταστάς -- intransitive

καίπερ οὐκ ἐχόντων ὡς δεῖ πολλῶν -- "even though they are not as many as they ought to have been" or "as we need". Agreeing with τῶν . . . ὑπηργμένων.

εἰκότως -- "with reason," "reasonably so", modifying μεγάλην ἂν ἔχειν αὐτοῖς χάριν.

τὸ μὲν γὰρ πόλλ' ἀπολωλεκέναι κατὰ τὸν πόλεμον -- "the fact that many things have been lost in the course of the war" (not "at the hands of the enemy"). See LSJ κατά + acc. B.VII. "the fact that many losses have occurred over the course of the war"

See LSJ κατά + acc. B.VII:
VII. of Time, during or in the course of a period, “κ. τὸν πόλεμον” Hdt.7.137; καθ᾽ ἡμέραν, κατ᾽ ἦμαρ, by day, A. Ch.818, Ag.668; “κατ᾽ εὐφρόνην” Id.Pers.221; κ. Χειμῶνα, κ. θερείαν, PLille1r14 (iii B.C.), PTeb.27.60 (ii B.C.).
τῆς ἡμετέρας ἀμελείας ἄν τις θείη δικαίως -- "someone would rightly ascribe . . . "

τὸ δὲ μήτε πάλαι τοῦτο πεπονθέναι
πεφηνέναι τέ τιν’ ἡμῖν συμμαχίαν τούτων ἀντίρροπον, --

"the fact that we did not experience this previously
and that an alliance has appeared for us as a counterbalance to these [losses] [τούτων ἀντίρροπον]"

ἔγωγε θείην "I, for my part, would consider". ἔγωγε is emphatic. "At least for me" doesn't quite capture this.

εὐεργέτημ' -- singular

Glad to see you're continuing this exercise.
Bill Walderman

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by mwh »

οὐδενός ἐστιν ἐλάττων τῶν προτέρων ἐκείνων
Not “is not at all less than the previous ones”: that would be ουδεν. Rather “is less than none of the previous ones."

καίπερ οὐκ ἐχόντων ὡς δεῖ πολλῶν
Not “although many have not what they need,” rather “although many (things) are not in the state that they should be”. εχω + adverb, cf. ουτως εχει this is how it is, it’s like this, καλῶς εχω I’m fine, so ταυτα ουκ εχει ως δει this is not as it should be. I think Hylander is wrong here.
("though they are not as many as they ought to have been" wd be καιπερ ου τοσουτων οντων οσ' εδει)

ἐμοίγε δοκεῖ τις ἄν … μεγάλην ἂν ἔχειν αὐτοῖς χάριν
Well translated by “I think” etc., but your “would say” and “it seems” are wrong. Lit. “to me someone seems … that (although …, nonethless) he would be very grateful …”, i.e. “I for my part think that someone/anyone … would ...”. Notice the first αν anticipating the later one.
εικοτως at end is tantamount to “and quite right too.” “—and reasonably so.” Cf. δικαίως below, "and rightly so."

καταστάς is intransitive (as Hylander says), with a predicate. For transitive the other aorist is used, καταστήσας. Cf. e.g. ανέστην I stood up, I rose, versus ανέστησα Ι stood (someone or something) up, I raised. This is how ἵστημι and all its compounds work. Your interpretation and translation are right.

τὸ δὲ μήτε πάλαι τοῦτο πεπονθέναι πεφηνέναι τέ τιν’ ἡμῖν συμμαχίαν τούτων ἀντίρροπον
“but (the twofold fact) that we haven’t experienced this long since [not “did not” as Hylander] and (the chance of) an alliance has presented itself to us to counterbalance these losses.”
Phonic correspondence and syntactical chiasmus of τοῦτο πεπονθέναι πεφηνέναι τέ τιν’ is striking.

τῆς παρ' ἐκείνων εὐνοίας εὐεργέτημ' ἂν ἔγωγε θείην
“I for my part would count as a benefaction of their good will.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

ἀλλ', οἶμαι, παρόμοιόν ἐστιν ὅπερ καὶ περὶ τῆς τῶν χρημάτων κτήσεως· ἂν μὲν γάρ, ὅσ' ἄν τις λάβῃ, καὶ σῴσῃ, μεγάλην ἔχει τῇ τύχῃ τὴν χάριν, ἂν δ' ἀναλώσας λάθῃ, συνανήλωσε καὶ τὸ μεμνῆσθαι [τὴν χάριν].

I think, however, there is a proverb which concerns the getting of wealth. For should a man also keep whatever he takes, he is grateful to Luck, but should he spend it away it unawares, he also spends away the remembering [of the gratitude].
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

παρόμοιόν ἐστιν ὅπερ -- crudely: "it's the same thing as also concerning . . ." (not "a proverb", παροιμιον)

σῴσῃ -- maybe "saves" in the financial sense would be better

ἀναλώσας λάθῃ -- the sense is "spend/waste heedlessly" "fritter away"

You forgot μεγάλην, which is fronted for emphasis.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I'm away from my commentary just now, but I'll just wing it with the next section:

καὶ περὶ τῶν πραγμάτων οὕτως οἱ μὴ χρησάμενοι τοῖς καιροῖς ὀρθῶς, οὐδ' εἰ συνέβη τι παρὰ τῶν θεῶν χρηστὸν μνημονεύουσι· πρὸς γὰρ τὸ τελευταῖον ἐκβὰν ἕκαστον τῶν πρὶν ὑπαρξάντων κρίνεται. διὸ καὶ σφόδρα δεῖ τῶν λοιπῶν ὑμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, φροντίσαι, ἵνα ταῦτ' ἐπανορθωσάμενοι τὴν ἐπὶ τοῖς πεπραγμένοις ἀδοξίαν ἀποτριψώμεθα.

And in regards to public affairs, the ones who are in this way not correctly seizing their opportunities, do not, if something good comes from the gods, recall it to mind, for each time only the latest event is evaluated. So also it is necessary for you to consider the rest, men of Athens, in order that re-evaluating these you shall correct your ignobility towards these affairs.

***

I notice that we've passed from ὑπηργμένων (mid perf) to ὑπαρξάντων (act aor). I feel like this makes sense. The second context is more impersonal, and more concerned with a chain of events than results. But I wouldn't mind if this were explained in detail by someone who really does understand it.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

οἱ μὴ χρησάμενοι τοῖς καιροῖς ὀρθῶς -- "those who don't take advantage of opportunities properly"

οὐδ' εἰ συνέβη τι παρὰ τῶν θεῶν χρηστὸν -- "[not] even if something good/advantageous has happened/succeeded from the gods" Note χρησάμενοι/χρηστὸν.

οὕτως . . . μνημονεύουσι -- "remember in the same way [as those who fritter away wealth they've acquired]", i.e., they lose their sense of gratitude, their memory dissipates.

οὐδ' εἰ -- "even if", negative, because of the negative implication of οὕτως μνημονεύουσι.

ἕκαστον τῶν πρὶν ὑπαρξάντων -- "each of the previous situations": ὑπάρχω has a wide range of meanings. Here, it means something like "exist", "be the case"; τὰ ὑπάρχοντα -- the situation(s); perhaps it recalls τῶν παρὰ τῶν θεῶν ἡμῖν ὑπηργμένων -- "the favorable initiatives that came from the gods"

τὸ τελευταῖον ἐκβὰν -- almost like English, "the final outcome"

πρὸς γὰρ τὸ τελευταῖον ἐκβὰν ἕκαστον τῶν πρὶν ὑπαρξάντων κρίνεται -- "each of the previous situations/opportunities is judged by the final outcome."

There is a variant τῶν προϋπαρξάντωντῶν, which the new OCT adopts, but it doesn't make any difference.

τῶν λοιπῶν -- "the future". Cf. LSJ λοιπός A.3:
3. freq. of Time, ὁ λ. χρόνος the future, Pi.N.7.67; “πρὸς τὸν λοιπὸν τοῦ χρόνου” D.15.16; τὸν λ. χρόνον for the future, S.Ph.84; “τοῦ λ. χρόνου” Id.El.817; “εἰς τὸν λ. χρόνον” Pl.Ep.358b; “ἐκ τοῦ λ. χρόνου” D.59.46: so without Subst. in neut., τὸ λ. henceforward, hereafter, Pi.P.5.118, A.Eu.1031, S.OT795, etc.; “τὸ λ. εἰς ἅπαντα . . χρόνον” A.Eu.763; “τὰ λ.” Id.Th.66, S.El.1226, Th.8.21; “ἐς τὸ λ.” A.Pers.526, Eu.708, cf. Inscr.Prien.64 (ii B. C.); also “τοῦ λ.” Hdt.1.189, Ar.Pax1084; “ἐκ τοῦ λ.” X. HG3.4.9; “ἐκ τῶν λ.” Pl.Lg.709e, Ep.316d; καθεύδετε τὸ λ. sleep now . . , Ev.Matt.26.45, Ev.Marc.14.41; ἑσπέρα δὲ ἦν λ. καὶ . . it was now evening, Jul.Or.1.24c.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Dloipo%2Fs

ἐπανορθωσάμενοι -- "corrrecting"

τὴν ἐπὶ τοῖς πεπραγμένοις ἀδοξίαν -- "the disgrace that continues to shame us from our past actions" [to reflect the force of the perfect πεπραγμένοις: our past actions continue to disgrace us]

ἀποτριψώμεθα -- "we [not 'you'!] may rub off/erase from ourselves"

Hope this helps.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

D 1.12
εἰ δὲ προησόμεθ᾽, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ τούτους τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, εἶτ᾽ Ὄλυνθον ἐκεῖνος καταστρέψεται, φρασάτω τις ἐμοὶ τί τὸ κωλῦον ἔτ᾽ αὐτὸν ἔσται βαδίζειν ὅποι βούλεται. ἆρα λογίζεταί τις ὑμῶν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν τρόπον δι᾽ ὃν μέγας γέγονεν ἀσθενὴς ὢν τὸ κατ᾽ ἀρχὰς Φίλιππος; τὸ πρῶτον Ἀμφίπολιν λαβών, μετὰ ταῦτα Πύδναν, πάλιν Ποτείδαιαν, Μεθώνην αὖθις, εἶτα Θετταλίας ἐπέβη:
If we ignore even these people, O men of Athens, next he shall conquer Olynthus. --Someone will have to tell me what shall remain preventing him from going wherever he wills. Does anyone among you take thought, O men of Athens, and contemplate the way which Phillip, being weak at first, has become strong? First taking Amphipolis, after that Pydna, and then Poteidaea, Methone also, next going against Thessaly

There is no connective between "εἶτ᾽ Ὄλυνθον ἐκεῖνος καταστρέψεται" and "φρασάτω τις ἐμοὶ". Hence the break. But let me know if I'm missing something.

τὸ κατ’ ἀρχάς is literally "weak during the beginnings." It's a standard idiom, according to the LSJ article on ἀρχή, but is there a reason for the plural in that idiom?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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εἶτ᾽ is the connective, "and consequently":

"If we dismiss these people, too, and consequently he subdues Olynthus, [let] someone tell me . . . " See LSJ.

φρασάτω is 3rd pers. aor. imperative.

"is there a reason for the plural in that idiom?" It's an idiom, a fixed expression. But in English we use plural "beginnings" -- "his beginnings", meaning not a single event, but all of the events in the initial phase of his career.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Thank you. I saw that φρασάτω was aorist imperative, but was reading "εἶτ᾽ Ὄλυνθον ἐκεῖνος καταστρέψεται" as an apodosis. Instead, the apodosis begins with φρασάτω...

D 1.13
μετὰ ταῦτα Φεράς, Παγασάς, Μαγνησίαν, πάνθ᾽ ὃν ἐβούλετ᾽ εὐτρεπίσας τρόπον ᾤχετ᾽ εἰς Θρᾴκην: εἶτ᾽ ἐκεῖ τοὺς μὲν ἐκβαλὼν τοὺς δὲ καταστήσας τῶν βασιλέων ἠσθένησε: πάλιν ῥᾴσας οὐκ ἐπὶ τὸ ῥᾳθυμεῖν ἀπέκλινεν, ἀλλ᾽ εὐθὺς Ὀλυνθίοις ἐπεχείρησεν. τὰς δ᾽ ἐπ᾽ Ἰλλυριοὺς καὶ Παίονας αὐτοῦ καὶ πρὸς Ἀρύββαν καὶ ὅποι τις ἂν εἴποι παραλείπω στρατείας.
After these Pherae, Pagasae, Magnesia, all of which having subdued as he liked, he struck into Thrace, and next, expelling some and raising others there, he fell ill. Again, having recovered, he did not relax into indolence, but immediately made attempts against Olynthus. His campaigns among the Illyrians and Paeonians, and against Arybbas and wherever else someone might say, I leave to the side.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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